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Daylight Saving Time Wastes Energy

kdawson posted more than 6 years ago | from the back-to-nature's-clock dept.

Government 550

An anonymous reader writes "With the time approaching when we'll be changing our clocks again, the Wall Street Journal is running a timely article on a study done by a UC-Santa Barbara economics professor and a Ph.D. student. The study unambiguously concludes that Daylight Saving Time not only doesn't save any energy, it actually wastes energy and costs more. The study used energy company records from Indiana before and after that state mandated DST for all of its counties, and calculated that the switch cost Indiana citizens $8.6M per year. 'I've never had a paper with such a clear and unambiguous finding as this,' the professor said."

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550 comments

Who Benefits? (5, Funny)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632620)

The story I've heard is that Daylight Saving Time legislation is driven by the companies that make charcoal barbecue briquettes. They don't care if your home uses more heat in the morning. They just want you to have a nice, long, bright evening in which you will have the desire to use their products.

Bruce

Re:Who Benefits? (1)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632674)

Oh, I doubt it's something that mundane (aside the funniness).

What is apparent to me as an Indiana citizen is that Mitch Daniels (our governor) wanted to do something to make himself look good. Many things, however, have strong pro or con sides in which the Democrats or Republicans will boo at.

Instead, we had our governor make an assumption: the businesses in our state will make more money if we switch to DST. It's complete garbage, but as a politician, making non-changes like this while claiming everything reeks of snake oil.

And what really pissed us IN. citizens off was that Congress decided that next year to play around with the definitions of DST and when they switch. Meh.

No, Really! (4, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632742)

Look at how Kingsford crows about the earlier institution of DST in this press release [thecloroxcompany.com] . I bet they do serious lobbying on this issue.

Re:Who Benefits? (5, Insightful)

edwardpickman (965122) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632762)

Programmers that have to adapt their code to take in account daylight savings time. They get more work out of the deal. Kind of the Y2K effect. I live in the one state with the sense to ignore it, Arizona. Perception is everything and if there's a perceived benefit it won't change. The real problem is you aren't changing the day length all you are doing is moving the extra daylight from the morning to evening. When I lived in a state with daylight savings I always found it annoying because one day I'm getting up after the sun is up then suddenly the next day I'm getting up and it's still dark. All it does is throw off body clocks and cost productivity until people adapt then in six months they go through the same mess. It's interesting that it actually costs power but there's little doubt it costs money and productivity so it's a pointless exercise.

Re:Who Benefits? (4, Interesting)

Bios_Hakr (68586) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632906)

DST seems like a pain. However, after I moved to Japan, I realized how nice it actually is. The sun coming up at 4am is not a cool thing. Makes sleeping in virtually impossible.

So, you can change the clocks, or change your schedule. Having DST ensures that everyone changes together.

Re:Who Benefits? (1)

darkpixel2k (623900) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632948)

The sun coming up at 4am is not a cool thing.

WTF? Are you confusing Daylight Savings Time with Time Zones maybe?

Re:Who Benefits? (4, Informative)

Bios_Hakr (68586) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633096)

No confusion. In the summers in Japan, the sunrise times are between 4:30am and 5am. DST would push that back to a more reasonable 5:30~6am.

Also, with DST, you get another hour of daylight tacked on to the end of a summer day. In Japan, the summer sunset is around 7pm. It'd be nice to have sun until 8pm.

A third point to consider is that these are the hours that the sun breaks the horizon. It starts getting light as early as 3:30am and is usually completely dark by 8pm.

In short, DST is nice if you like to do things on summer afternoons.

Re:Who Benefits? (5, Informative)

belmolis (702863) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632956)

Uh, there are such things as curtains and shutters.

The Japanese didn't see the benefit of DST. The US imposed it during the Occupation. The first thing the Japanese government did when it regained control was get rid of it.

Light, dark, light, dark, light, dark, light, dark (1)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633036)

Having DST ensures that everyone changes together.
And you think the change from night to day wouldn't do that?

 

Here is a solution for you (4, Funny)

patio11 (857072) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633044)

If you go to one of the local 100-yen stores, you can find this nice little blindfold thingee. With one of those you can sleep in until 3 PM if you want to. I have two -- one is the standard elastic-headband contraption and the other is just a black anime-esque cat which sits on your face all night. More for the novelty value than anything.

Now, while the USD has been falling against the yen recently, I'm going to wager that 100 yen is still less than $8.6 million.

Tough luck for you (1)

achurch (201270) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633048)

Japanese don't do this "sleeping in" thing. If you do, maybe you ought to invest in some curtains?

As a side note, I live in Yokohama and have no trouble whatsoever sleeping until noon when I feel like it.

You're close, actually (2, Insightful)

IdahoEv (195056) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632934)

You snark, but I've heard fairly serious accusations that DST is primarily driven by the golf-and-country-club lobby, which wants more months in which wealthy businessmen have light in the evenings after they get off work.

The results of this study are entirely unsurprising. DST saved energy when lighting was the primary use for electrical power in the home. More light in the evening, fewer lights on. But since the 1970's or so, air conditioning has come to consume far more energy in the summer than lighting, so sending people home from work while the sun is still strongly heating their homes means more home AC units. And it's far more efficient to cool a few large buildings (=low surface area) with industrial AC than millions of individual home-sized units.

And yet... just last year, the Congress voted to extend DST by a few weeks on each end, way out in the spring and fall when it can't possibly make much difference.

Re:You're close, actually (5, Funny)

Phroggy (441) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632954)

The other end was extended to include Halloween for safety reasons; kids can go Trick-Or-Treating in daylight.

Re:You're close, actually (1)

pipatron (966506) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633028)

Uhm, what? I hope this was a joke that passed me at a safe height! If not, I'd like to see some references!

Why not do it like AZ? (5, Interesting)

Xenographic (557057) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632624)

Skip DST entirely. No clock changes at all. You want more daylight? Get up earlier. Need more time to work? Work summer hours.

It's MUCH easier than having to change your clocks all the time. And it seems that it's much less wasteful, too.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (3, Interesting)

Baricom (763970) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632666)

And it seems that it's much less wasteful, too.
Very true. In fact, I wonder what the actual U.S. labor cost of changing clocks for DST would come out to. Even if you say it takes 10 seconds to reset each clock, that adds up over millions of people.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (3, Insightful)

Endymion (12816) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632700)

The one I want to know is how much energy it takes all of the people across the country to separate out and otherwise deal with recycling. Sure, it's just a few seconds here and there, but added up, that's probably a significant number of Joules of energy being used.

And then to convert that amount of energy into the number of barrels of oil it represents. I don't think most people have ever considered the equation of how much oil we are spending to enable us to use less oil. (only talking plastic, of course - aluminum is a pretty clear case of a win for recycling)

There's probably other things, too, that we just take for granted as they are such small impacts on our time (energy), yet add up to significant amounts in aggregate.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (3, Interesting)

Bios_Hakr (68586) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632880)

Bullshit! did a show on recycling. More or less, the only recycling that matters is aluminum. All other recycling *only* works if subsides are in-place.

Most plastics can't be recycled. Type 1, 2, and 3 are *recyclable* but type 1 is the only one commonly recycled.

Most paper will degrade anyway. A lot of landfills can use this degradation to power equipment and produce electricity.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1, Interesting)

Endymion (12816) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632890)

yes, that would be my point

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (0, Offtopic)

catmistake (814204) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632908)

its this kind of obvious rationale that makes me wonder how Microsoft engineers can act so smooth and arrogant. Sure, UNIX systems will need patches, too, but the sheer number of updates, reboots, etc. (for DST or otherwise) involved in keeping a Windows desktop or server up to date, multiplied by the masses of installations out there, must add up to a rather large fortune... likely rivaling the GNP of a small country.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633092)

Huh?!?

What, a Windows system requires more patches per DST setup than Unix? Because DST changes more on Windows servers, or something? I seriously fail to see your so-called point.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (4, Informative)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633068)

Glass is a win, too. Lasts forever in a landfill, but makes great house insulation if you recycle it. Given that sand mining in California is now from underwater, that's got to be a win. Paper and used cartons get bought, so I'd be surprised if they weren't a win too. Out here in Berkeley there's a biowaste can for yard and food waste, and they compost it en masse, with proper temperature and agitation, not like most backyard compost. The city doesn't buy fertilizer, and they get enough extra to hand out sacks of beautiful carbon and nitrogen rich black soil to the residents. Plants shoot up on that stuff. There is a commercial styrofoam recycling plant in Oakland.

So, what's left is plastic.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (3, Insightful)

amRadioHed (463061) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633084)

There's probably other things, too, that we just take for granted as they are such small impacts on our time (energy), yet add up to significant amounts in aggregate.
I guess that depends on how you define significance. Someone a little down thread figured that the US wasts about 95 man years changing clocks for DST every year. Ok, that sounds like a lot but only if you pretend it isn't an aggregate of millions of peoples time. Any insignificant amount multiplied enough will come out to a significant amount but that doesn't make it significant. I just tried to imagine something that American's spend less time doing than changing their clocks and I drew a blank.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

otomo_1001 (22925) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632788)

Note: cb is a function to echo "$*" | bc -lq, with that out of the way...

$ cb "((((10*300000000)/60)/60)/24)/365"
95.12937595129375951293

So by your estimate of 10 seconds per clock, about 95 years worth of people time is wasted each year. Unless I made a mistake in my quick typing. Depressing isn't it? :)

My vote: Just suck it up and use utc. Who cares that you get up at 12 or 17 o'clock?

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

Nullav (1053766) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632790)

Even if it were ten seconds for everyone on the planet, it wouldn't amount to much. People just don't work that well in parallel, it would probably be spent typing a few lines, staring at a TV, or entertaining an idle thought. If you want to get into labor costs, I'd be much more interested in the losses due to drowsy, inattentive, and 'sick' workers in the day or two after the switch.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

afidel (530433) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632860)

Eh it was the recent changes that caused a crudload of work for me and even now it's still making work because any server that's rebuilt without the patch will have the wrong time. Add to that the fact that older versions of java don't have the DST patch built in and it adds up to a lot of things that need to be checked before each change. Sure at this point it's just a matter of firing off a few batch files and checking the results but it's still like 30 minutes of work twice a year and it was probably 20 hours last spring developing all the scripts and patching all our servers.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

Chuck_McDevitt (665265) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632676)

So, I just tell me boss that I will be working an hour earlier and leaving an hour earlier, even though other employees that I need to work with will stick to their usual hours? And the customers I need to deal with, I'll just tell them I'll be ending my support an hour earlier each day? The problem with totally voluntary systems is they only work right if everybody (or the majority) agree, at least when it comes to business. Daylight savings maximizes the "after-work" daylight time, which is useful for many of us.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632696)

I don't know if you're aware of this but daylight is bad for you [wikipedia.org] .

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

Chuck_McDevitt (665265) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632730)

No daylight is also bad for you: You need daylight for vitamin D production.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050922014720.htm [sciencedaily.com]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,257921,00.html [foxnews.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time [wikipedia.org]

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (4, Funny)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632748)

Take vitamins.. lot safer than being in the Sun. Do you have a family? Every minute you are in the Sun is another chance that you will get skin cancer and DIE.. then who will take care of your kids? Don't you think it is a bit selfish of you to be endangering your life like that? :)

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632804)

How do weird extremist views come out on nearly every topic? Taking vitamins is not always a sensible option either when there are some places that can't even get a placebo right, and popping pills instead of getting some sunlight when it is available is pretty stupid anyway. Too much sun is bad. Not enough sun is bad. As we grow up we learn that many things are like this.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632828)

Too much sun is bad. Not enough sun is bad.
Umm, no. Sunlight is both a necessary part of physiological functioning and a cause of skin cancer. A "normal" amount of sunlight can cause skin cancer.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

Chuck_McDevitt (665265) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632810)

Very funny... No, I don't feel that way. If I go out in the sun, I use sunblock. I'm sure some tech geeks never see enough sun to own any, but for the rest of us, it works.

I'm sure some people prefer living in the dark, but most of those don't get enough exersize, and so are worse-off health wise.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (4, Funny)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632856)

Don't get me started on how bad exercise is for you.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (4, Funny)

vux984 (928602) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632820)

Yeah, and oxygen is what leads to old age and ultimately 'so called' natural death. So breath less. Breath slower. You only have so many. Make them last. ;)

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

ortcutt (711694) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632752)

How is that going to help me get in a softball game before dark on a summer night? Are you suggesting that everyone try to coordinate to get everyone else to convince their bosses to let them come an hour earlier and leave an hour earlier from work? That's a huge coordination problem. Changing the clocks by comparison is dead simple. That's the brilliance of DST, the realization that local time is simply a convention and that it's simpler to change the convention twice a year than it is to try to get everyone to change the nominal time at which they perform activities like going to work.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (2, Interesting)

arivanov (12034) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632808)

While your argument is correct, logical and makes sense it is not applicable in most places around the world. At least here the Trade Unions have managed to have the working hours for retail premises legislated. Similar legislation exists for premises selling alcohol, pubs, cafes, etc around the world. Politicians have been busy and it sometimes it is really easier to move the clock and get over with it rather than get two fat volumes of century old legislation off the books.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

oodaloop (1229816) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632862)

I think this says it all. From TFA: "One study of the situation in Indiana cannot accurately asses the impact of [daylight-saving time] changes across the nation, especially when it does not include more northern, colder regions," the congressman notes. Just because DST in Indiana causes waste doesn't mean other areas don't offset it. I don't know whether DST causes more or less energy usage, but like they say in TFA, moe research needs to be done. Did anyone seriously think one study in Indiana definitively proved that DST was wasteful in Hawaii, Alaska, et al?

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (5, Funny)

alshithead (981606) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632928)

"Skip DST entirely. No clock changes at all."

Yeah, let's do away with all of this time zone crap too. I think the folks on the other side of the world from me can all go third shift.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (3, Interesting)

MoogMan (442253) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632932)

And while you're there, use UTC. There is no sense in using timezones, it just causes pain and suffering for people that talk to others in many different countries.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (1)

MidnightBrewer (97195) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632970)

I live in Japan, which means I've been off DST for six years. Not a big deal at all, except for remembering to draw your curtains in the summer so that the sunrise at 4:30 AM doesn't wake you up.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (2, Interesting)

Phroggy (441) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633010)

Skip DST entirely. No clock changes at all. You want more daylight? Get up earlier. Need more time to work? Work summer hours.

It's MUCH easier than having to change your clocks all the time. And it seems that it's much less wasteful, too.
Because somewhere, somebody is making money on this, and they would stand to lose quite a bit if we all adopted Arizona's model. The question is, who is that somebody? Bruce Perens above said it's the charcoal briquette manufacturers; I've heard it's WalMart and other retailers (selling charcoal briquettes, but also other picnic/outdoor/camping gear). It's pretty obvious that the official reason (saving energy, which is why the DST change was attached to an energy bill) is a load of crap.

I wouldn't be surprised if all the required computer updates cost $2 billion for IT.

Re:Why not do it like AZ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22633098)

THANKYOU. If you weren't at 5+ already, I'd mod you up. DLS to me is the stupidest, most hair brained piece of claptrap that normal people are willing to swallow. If we applied the same logic of DLS to society, we'd end up with moronic schemes like "ban cars to reduce road fatalities" and "change history to suit a misprint in a widely-circulated textbook". Besides, DLS is a thing of the past - with communications technology making talking to someone on the other side of the world as easy as your next-door neighbour, schemes which alter (on a local level) something as fundamental as time are just a massive disruption.

waste of a story. (1)

Q-Hack! (37846) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632630)

Is it just me, or do I see some sort of story about Daylight savings every year. Some tout a study about a waste of energy/money. Others talk about we are just one step away from changing the system. If you ask me, society wont change the system. We are too ingrained with it. Yes, there are better methods. Yes, the Military has been using a 24 hour "Zulu" clock based on GMT. So what... we as a society are not going to change it any time soon.

Re:waste of a story. (1)

AndGodSed (968378) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632746)

Yes, and it's election year. EVERYTHING vote-worthy is an issue...

Putting the thermostat above 60 wastes it too (4, Insightful)

istartedi (132515) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632632)

I mean, after all, you're not going to get hypothermia. Most of you will be miserable of course, and the cost of that is rather difficult to calculate. I don't know about the rest of you out there in Slash-land, but my co-workers and I have been looking forward to coming home after work and having an extra hour of daylight. It's priceless. So. Put that in your penny-pinching pipe and smoke it.

Re:Putting the thermostat above 60 wastes it too (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632658)

My thermostat is actually set to 59 degrees when it's colder outside than that ;).

Of course, I more than make up for my wintertime conservation by air conditioning down to 67 degrees in the summertime.

(my thermostat is for some reason in fahrenheit).

Re:Putting the thermostat above 60 wastes it too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22633080)

Actually, around my neck of the US, they scream bloody murder if we set the thermostat any lower than 70 (80 at home for Christs sake). Its been unseasonably HOT here this year these past few "winter" months. I'm sure you've seen us in the news lately, namely Miami, and most of South Eastern FL loosing power due to a particularly hot day when everyone cut on their A/Cs overwhelming the otherwise unprepared power company that wasn't ready for the sudden (again unseasonably) huge load it caused on the system as a whole. Though I think they should have noticed, like the rest of us down here, that it was hot and not likely to cool down any time soon and thus either anticipated it or otherwise prepared for it. Well it did cool off eventually, ironically the day after the power failures that made the news, but the chill lasted all of a lousy 2-3 days. Number one cause of computer failures here (aside from human errors or manufacturing failures) are almost always heat related or heat related aggravated by dust or lack of proper cooling.

Oh and I hate DST in general, especially the new DST2007, that was a fscking pain getting numerous systems patched and tested for it for no good reason.

Or the sample is not enough? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632634)

From TFA:
"One study of the situation in Indiana cannot accurately asses the impact of [daylight-saving time] changes across the nation, especially when it does not include more northern, colder regions," the congressman (Mr. Markey) notes.

Who's shocked? (2, Informative)

grasshoppa (657393) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632638)

I've had my suspicions for a while, but honestly, who's shocked? This world is run on money. If you see a politician pushing something, just follow the money trail and you'll find their backers.

Puts a whole new spin on our candidates, don't it? Look at their "platforms", then look at their voting history. The patterns are usually blatantly obvious for any who so chose to look. It's then the job of the candidates ( and their parties ) to bullshit us into believing we aren't seeing what we're seeing. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Don't look behind the curtain, folks, just punch the ticket and elect the next nutjob into office.

I can only speak for myself (2, Insightful)

pembo13 (770295) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632644)

As someone from the Caribbean now in the Midwest (of the USA), it makes no sense to me in everyday life and is purely annoying. In areas where the sunset/sunrise times are that much affected, is it not possible to have individuals/businesses allow for the change?

DST Improves Quality of Life (3, Insightful)

ortcutt (711694) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632650)

DST would be worth it even if it wasted energy. Morning hours of daylight are useless to me considering that I am either at work or on the way to work. I can actually use after-work hours of daylight to do something enjoyable. That's the original rationale for DST and it still applies. DST should be extended year-round.

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (3, Informative)

compro01 (777531) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632734)

We did that here in Saskatchewan. We've been on year-round DST since 1966, a fact the "let's go DST" crowd seems to blissfully ignore.

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (1)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632798)

And how much daylight do you save in winter? How much energy?

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (1)

Chuck_McDevitt (665265) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632740)

I agree. After work daylight is a boon to all tech workers who rarely get to see the sun otherwise.

Sure... (1)

msauve (701917) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633018)

the rest of us should have to live through this sillyness because you can't figure out that working 8-4 instead of 9-5 would achieve exactly the same thing. Duh.

Re:Sure... (1)

ortcutt (711694) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633070)

Uhh, unless I can get other people to do so as well, I'm going to be the only one home at 4pm. DST allows for social activities in the summer since it applies to everyone automatically without anyone having to change their nominal schedule.

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22633026)

Depends entirely on where you are.

Here in Queensland, Australia, we don't have DST, while the rest of the east coast of Australia does. Daylight savings just doesn't make any sense here - the earliest the sun ever sets is 5:00PM (for about a month), and the latest is something like 6:30PM. There's just not enough variation for it to be worth the effort. It does make sense for somewhere like the UK, where the sun sets as late as 10 PM, or as early as 3 PM, but not here.

Yet there's a fairly vocal pro-DST crowd here, and the argument basically bolis down to "but everyone else does it, and it's a minor inconvenience to remember to call people in Sydney an hour early". There is absolutely no benefit (unless you frequently work late) to DST here. Although there is, perhaps, and argument to be made that we should be in GMT+11 instead of GMT+10 all year round.

A better solution, and one which businesses seem to be strangely adverse to, is starting work earlier, and knocking off earlier. Same benefits, with none of the pointless government intervention crap that DST requires, and no need to move the clocks around.

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (1)

Corporate Troll (537873) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633032)

Strange, I enjoy drinking my cool beer in the twilight, when the heat of the sun is gone and it's actually bearable.... and I live in continental Europe, where 35C is considered very hot (in the middle of the summer).

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (5, Funny)

Gutboy (587531) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633054)

Maybe we should just set the clocks so the sun comes up at noon. That way you'll get to see a beautiful sunrise over lunch, it will be nice and bright outside when you get home, and the sun will set sometime after you go to sleep.

Re:DST Improves Quality of Life (1)

ortcutt (711694) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633078)

Sounds good to me.

Alternate interpretation (4, Insightful)

Sneftel (15416) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632654)

The conclusions seem reasonable, but I'm disturbed that the researchers didn't consider the potential impact of overall hotter summers. Did neighboring states have relatively flat energy usage over the same period?

Re:Alternate interpretation (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632708)

I could simply say RTFA, but I'll also mention that they used the data from other illinois counties that used DST before and after as a control... funny how researchers think of these silly details before it reaches slashdot...

Re:Alternate interpretation (1)

Sneftel (15416) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632806)

Hmm, indeed. I missed that sentence.

Re:Alternate interpretation (1)

Askmum (1038780) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633060)

Or if there maybe is a long year trend of rising energy consumption.

Frankly, without this the study is useless and the professor should be sacked if he doesn't spot that omission.

Just a suggestion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632662)

In the spirit where America always caters to minorities, let's boycott DST and show the whole world what we think about it by always being an hour late to everything! Our jobs, our scheduled meetings, and everything else! Screw DST!

Sleep (1)

Corpuscavernosa (996139) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632664)

The only time per year that I actually appreciate the switch is that glorious day in fall when you get to sleep in an extra hour. It lasts a couple days then no further benefit.

And that horrible, evil, upcoming day when we "spring" forward is a miserable, deplorable day for those of us who don't get along well with morning.

Re:Sleep (1)

Arterion (941661) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632726)

The most important issue involving DST is, I believe, it's effects on sleep and circadian rhythms. Our biological clocks are based largely on daylight hours. Our concept of "time" is entirely artificial.

This also just in! (0, Offtopic)

Stormscape (998750) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632668)

World War II over, America wins!

more recreation time & increased economic acti (4, Insightful)

Marbleless (640965) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632678)

... both of which would use more energy I would have thought.

Show me the figures with those items adjusted for and there may be something worth a story.

Re: Daylight Saving Time Wastes Energy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632682)

Well duh.

It fades the curtains too.

Seriously thou, it's been shown for years now that energy savings from folks not using their lights (which is not necessarily a very well substantiated claim) are lost when those same folks spend their energy dollar elsewhere - for example, lighting /in the morning/, or increased heating/cooling bills.

It has also been demonstrated that daylight savings is a contributing factor to increased road accidents as well. So there you go. Ignobel prize winner Dr. Karl says so: http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s689016.htm [abc.net.au]

See ya.

Daylight savings is great. I vote we keep it. (1)

deek (22697) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632686)

I actually like being able to come home from work, and there's still plenty of light left in the sky. Otherwise, almost all I'd experience of my house is when it's shrouded in darkness. Except for those weekends when the light doth shine through the darkness.

Re:Daylight savings is great. I vote we keep it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632732)

Amen to that. I'm excited to come home next week while it is still light outside.

Re:Daylight savings is great. I vote we keep it. (2, Insightful)

compro01 (777531) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632758)

how about you follow our (Saskatchewan's) example and have DST year-round? We've been on DST full-time since 1966.

Re:Daylight savings is great. I vote we keep it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632872)

Or you could, you know, go to work an hour early and leave an hour early.

Sort of like you do anyway with DST, but just do it without fucking up everyone else's clock.

If you want the "extra hour of daylight" move your own damned day an hour back. Hands off my clock!

worthless (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632702)

Apparently the study covered only household electricity use. Since offices, shops, etcetera use plenty of power, that would seem to leave a huge data in the data.

Save the Whales (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632704)

Homes burned, eco-terrorists suspected [nwsource.com]

As long as environmentalists have good intentions - WHO CARES!

Give me more light in the evening (5, Insightful)

PhantomHarlock (189617) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632710)

I think it should be permanently 'sprung forward' so we get more light in the evening. Otherwise useless to us non-morning people. Bah! (image of Catbert holding rolled up newspaper)

Re:Give me more light in the evening (2, Insightful)

qwer_tea (1189865) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632916)

I think it should be permanently 'sprung forward' so we get more light in the evening.

I think you're confused about our time system. Hint: there is a reason that 12 at night is called midnight and 12 at noon is called midday.

If you want more daylight, wake-up ealier rather than messing with your (and our) clocks.

Give me less light in the morning (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632996)

Er, you DO realize that there is no extra daylight in the winter months to "borrow" from the morning hours? If you go DST year-round, you'll be driving to work/school in the dark at 8am.

I'm a 'Hoosier'... (1)

Mistress.Erin (875686) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632714)

...even though I attend Purdue. Though I, in general, found DST more of a hassle than a hindrance, I wonder how many of fellow Hoosiers did. Does the study take into account the groans and awkwardness of switching gears?

I do hope that they continue the study, to see if the difference between pre-DST Indiana and post-DST Indiana starts to reach an equilibrium after the residents have had time to get used to it.

well thats different (2, Informative)

malignant_minded (884324) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632722)

...Still, the Transportation Department study stuck. Speaking before the House of Representatives in 2002, Indiana Rep. Julia Carson said that under daylight-saving time, Indiana families would save "over $7 million annually in electricity rates alone...

then a study by University of California-Santa Barbara economics professor Matthew Kotchen and Ph.D. student Laura Grant

...Using more than seven million monthly meter readings from Duke Energy Corp., covering nearly all the households in southern Indiana for three years...

...Their finding: Having the entire state switch to daylight-saving time each year, rather than stay on standard time, costs Indiana households an additional $8.6 million in electricity bills...

Daylight savings insane (1, Flamebait)

syousef (465911) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632754)

Adjust business hours periodically. Don't change the freakin' clock and have an hour go missing every 6 months. It didn't even make sense when we were still hand plowing. It certainly doesn't now!!!

Re:Daylight savings insane (1)

Chuck_McDevitt (665265) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632832)

You seriously think that would be cheaper? Or more pratical?

Re:Daylight savings insane (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632920)

It's what they already do anyway. The only difference is they also change the clock to a fake time creating extra hassles when dealing with different states not on DST and further fracturing timezones arbitrarily.

I want a different kind of daylight savings time. (2, Insightful)

fredmosby (545378) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632756)

Usually by the time I get off work it's almost dark outside. It really sucks to be looking out the office window seeing what I nice day it is and not be able to go outside. Business hours should be from noon to 8:00. They way I could get up and go enjoy some of the daylight hours even though it's a work day.

Another reason to hate DST.. (1)

sisko (114628) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632764)

The cows get confused and the curtains fade faster.

Less than 2 dollars per person per year? (1)

sharp3 (1195261) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632792)

While of course there is no such thing as 'good waste', simple math will tell us that the monetary loss to the people of Indiana is minute. According to the 2006 census, the population of Indiana is 6,313,520. So if DST costs the state 8.1e6 per year then that is a meager 1.28 dollars per capita, or a single order of In-n-Out fries per person.

Hemp for energy in 2008, vote yes (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632814)

On January 24th, the California Supreme Court ruled that employers can fire workers who use medical marijuana even if it was legally recommended by a doctor.

  We knew this was going to happen because Oregon did the same thing right at the time we were finishing up the wording for the California Cannabis Hemp & Health Initiative 2008 (CCHHI). We addressed this problem in our initiative under section 5(b). Here is the wording we have included: ..
5(b): "Testing for inactive and/or inert residual cannabis metabolites shall not be required for employment or insurance, nor be considered in determining employment, other impairment, or intoxication." ..
Now all we have to do is get this initiative on the ballot to fix this problem. We need everyone's help with this. Please visit http://www.calhemp08.org/ [calhemp08.org] for more information on how you can help.
The only way to reverse the Greenhouse Effect is with Cannabis Hemp. It makes the best fuel on Earth, as well as the best paper, fiber, food and medicines. Californians are smart to use this wonderful plant and should not be threatened with losing their jobs for it.

The average lifespan in the United States is 76 for a man and 78 for a woman. But if you smoke pot morning, noon and night, you will live an average of two years longer than if you don't. People who smoke pot but don't smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol will live approximately 8 to 24 years longer than those who do smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol. This was proven in studies done by Dr. Vera Ruben on Rastafarians in Jamaica from 1968 to 1974. The Rastafarians lived up in the hills and were the poorest people in Jamaica. Everyone expected them to have the shortest lives but instead they had the longest lives. They smoked pot morning, noon and night. This study cost $6,000,000.00 and was an extremely comprehensive study. If the same study was done today it would cost approximately $125,000,000.00.

We can do something about this if we have all of you helping us. We only have until the middle of April so let's get to work!!! Thanks!

Save the world for 24 bucks -
12 bucks if you dont have 24

If we legalize Cannabis Hemp in California this year, just imagine what life will be like a couple of years from now. Almost everything we use in our daily lives will be made from hemp.

  We won't have to feel guilty about going to places like McDonald's or Burger King anymore because the packaging will be made from hemp (not trees). You'll have your choice between a cow burger and a hemp burger. Cheese too. Hempseed is the finest food on the planet, bar none. It helps clean out your arteries. And it tastes great. It can be made to look and taste like just about anything you want it to. You can have hemp ice cream for dessert!

No more smelly exhaust fumes coming out of our cars. We'll be using the finest fuel in the world and we won't have to shoot anybody for it. The CO2 levels will be drastically reduced. The only way to reverse the Greenhouse Effect is by growing hemp all over the globe and leaving all trees and fossil fuels (gas, oil and coal) in the ground.

Our cars will be made of hemp too! Henry Ford built a car made of hemp right before World War II. He predicted that all cars in the future would be made from hemp or other plants. There's a little video on YouTube showing him hitting the back of the car with a sledgehammer to demonstrate how strong it is and how it wouldn't make a dent.

Our houses will be made almost completely from hemp. It is a non-toxic replacement for cement, lumber, sheetrock, plaster, insulation and acoustic tiles. Because of its strength and flexibility, it makes an ideal construction material for areas susceptible to earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes. It is non-flammable, fungicidal, antibacterial, waterproof and inedible by rodents and termites.

Just about everything inside our houses will be made from hemp, too, including carpets, drapes, furniture upholstery, paints, varnishes, shampoo, conditioner, soap, lotions and creams. Also, anything made out of plastic, including computers, speakers, DVD holders, window blinds, food packaging, etc.

All of our clothing can be made from 100% hemp or hemp blended with other fabrics like organic cotton or silk. You can even make fake fur out of hemp! And no pesticides are required to grow it, unlike non-organic cotton. Fifty percent of all poisons used for agricultural crops in the United States are used just on non-organic cotton.

We won't be killing ourselves with pharmaceuticals anymore. We'll be using natural cannabis for most of our ailments. It's the best thing for Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, migraines, ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), Parkinson's, sickle cell anemia, attention deficit disorder, nausea, cancer, fibromyalgia and countless other problems.

Cannabis Hemp can cure Parvo in dogs, get song birds to sing, and is the best bait for fish. Horses love it, too.

Isn't it strange - doesn't it make you mad as hell - that the number one food of all time for most birds, fish, horses, humans, and life in general, is illegal to have naturally and healthfully in the United States of America, as ordered by the Nazi/Gestapo-like Amerikan Drug Enforcement Administration and, through them, the USDA?

Only California voters can vote for this initiative, but people all over the world can donate and help make it a reality. Let's show the government who's really in charge...WE THE PEOPLE! Please send this message to your friends all over the world. Tell them California needs your money now so we can get this on the ballot. We only have about 80 days left so please repost, repost, repost! And then follow up on it. I've never asked for money before but I'll be 69 years old this year and would like to see this done in my lifetime!
 

Letter to my congressional reps (4, Funny)

swm (171547) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632826)

I wrote this to my congressional representatives last fall:

Dear Sir:

Daylight savings time hits hard this time of year.

It was cold and dark when I got up this morning, so the
first thing I did was was turn up the heat and turn on the
lights. That's going to jack up my energy bill for the
month.

Then I drove my son to school. He missed his bus all five
days this week. That's going to jack up my fuel bill for the
month.

Then I dragged myself through another day at work. I don't
function well when I have to get up before dawn.

The people in my family are all diurnal (dI-UR-nal). It
means we sleep when it's dark and wake when it's light. The
problem is that in northern latitudes (like Massachusetts)
the sun rises later in the winter than in the summer.

To compensate for this, we have a scheme called Daylight
Savings Time. Daylight savings shifts our school and work
schedules forward in the summer and back in the winter, to
keep them roughly in sync with the sun. It used to work
pretty well, but congress broke it a couple of years ago:
now it goes too long in the fall and starts too early in the
spring.

Most of the damage that congress does affects me at some
remove, but this--this comes right out of my hide. When I'm
stumbling around in the dark for three weeks next spring,
I'll be thinking of you.

Sincerely, ...

Ben Franklin may have been wrong... (1)

catmistake (814204) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632830)

about DST, but he "nailed" it when he said to put a basket over her head.

won't somebody think of the cows? (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632876)

seriously, here in WA the cows won't know what time it is, hence we shouldn't have daylight saving!

This is already done in Saskatchewan (1)

Overkill Nbuta (1035654) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632882)

I lived in Saskatchewan for a while and not changing time is freaking annoying. They have it set up to give more sunshine hours in the morning for farming, but really I hated it. All summer the sun sets earlier so its harder to spend an evening out, and then you have sun up at 5 in the morning which I found just to be useless. But thats how they do it here in Saskatchewan Canada.

Who cares about humans; no the ENVIRONMENT... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22632888)

I'm getting very fed up with both DST as well as the "environmental terror" as I like to call it. So it doesn't matter if many humans get into trouble every year due to the sudden time change (a lesser degree jetlag), if parents with children get into the annual problems when the kids (who don't comprehend time yet) simply don't understand why the heck you suddenly need to get up an hour later and finally (and my personal favorite) why the goverment is stealing one precious hour of my sleep (!). Ok, that last one was a joke.

All those things don't matter at all to our goverments. But fear... Now that the environment is getting involved, now that makes things different. Its costing instead of reducing energy? Oooh, and we all know how much the goverments needs to be political correct so.. Hopefully will see a good thing within this bad thing but I can't say to be very happy with it if DST would go on these grounds. Whatever happened to the welfare of us humble humans?

Daylight time waste energy (1)

DeltaQH (717204) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632960)

Specially my own biological energy!

First post (2, Funny)

Morgor (542294) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632962)

This would have been the first post, if I remembered to set my clock for DST.

Tim Brown covered this days ago (1)

monzsca (63267) | more than 6 years ago | (#22632976)

Tim Brown has has many interesting things to say about daylight savings [blogspot.com] .

"Down with DST! Down with DST!" (0)

D4C5CE (578304) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633024)

Congresscritters have to be told again [slashdot.org] that in a networked, computerized world where accurate, continuous time- and record-keeping is of the essence, it has become one of the worst ideas ever to mess around with the clocks twice a year (in particular now that everyone has about a dozen of them in various devices), at different dates and points in time all around the globe. High time indeed, literally, to put an end to this tremendous waste of resources (and everyone's time) that is Daylight Saving Time.

Super Smash Brothers Brawl (1)

sheepweevil (1036936) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633082)

The worst part about daylight savings time this year is that everyone getting SSBB at midnight on Sunday loses an hour of valuable playtime!

well fine then (1)

ILuvRamen (1026668) | more than 6 years ago | (#22633094)

'I've never had a paper with such a clear and unambiguous finding as this,' the professor said.
Well then I guess someone hasn't read any reviews of OOXML...or Superman for the N64 :-P
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