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Gen Y Workers Reinventing IT for the Better

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the worse-or-better dept.

Education 447

buzzardsbay writes "We all know the complaints about young employees. They depend too much on their parents' money, they need constant hand-holding, they have no job loyalty, they demand more than they're worth, they disrespect older employees, and they're naive about corporate culture. But despite this conventional wisdom, there's growing evidence that the different working styles of Gen Y workers might be causing fundamental — and beneficial — changes in the way enterprises run, especially when it comes to IT. For example, they may show better judgment when making tech purchases and are often better with green IT initiatives. This is a nice counterpoint to a previous story (and resulting incendiary comments) that dubbed young tech workers a risk to corporate networks."

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Applause is in order (-1, Troll)

Lord Haw Haw (1248410) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806810)

Well, I for one, take my hat off to them. Generally speaking.... they're stifled. [yahoo.com]

Re:Applause is in order (4, Informative)

Jaysyn (203771) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806874)

Mod this down, Very NSFW.

Re:Applause is in order (2, Interesting)

QRDeNameland (873957) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807730)

NSFW?!? Not safe, period!!!!

Re:Applause is in order (4, Informative)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807760)

Mod this down, Very NSFW.

Indeed, this is the third posting I've seen today (second from this poster) which looks like a yahoo.com and ends up being members.on.nimp.org (REALLY NSWF, don't go there) which will randomly show some of the nastier web imagery.

Nasty stuff.

Cheers

WARNING: Link in parent post is Final Measure (0, Offtopic)

level_headed_midwest (888889) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806882)

Just a heads-up as the domain is ID'd as yahoo.com.

Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (5, Insightful)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806836)

Is it any wonder, with tens of thousands of layoffs every couple of years, why workers don't feel a strict loyalty to the companies that employ them? If the company isn't willing to maintain their educated, trained, experienced workforce through a minor downturn, then they should expect the employees to look for better opportunities.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (2, Interesting)

electrictroy (912290) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806924)

I've been working as a "1 year contractor" ever since 1999 (I graduated 1997). I have no loyalty whatsoever. This is just a way to collect money for my future retirement.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (5, Interesting)

cayenne8 (626475) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807360)

"I've been working as a "1 year contractor" ever since 1999 (I graduated 1997). I have no loyalty whatsoever. This is just a way to collect money for my future retirement."

I agree 100%. I like my work, and will work my butt off, but, I will not work for free. I hope I never have to have a salary job again. Even when I have to do some contract work W2, I go hourly. But, I prefer c2c 1099 work. I can easily afford my own insurance (I'm a bit of a risk, but, still only about $200/mo)...and with the high deductible insurance, I can run my own HSA (Health Savings Account), and sock away about $2900/yr pre-tax, and use that to pay any medical fees...glasses, contacts...OTC meds, etc. The HSA isn't use it or lose it as are the medical savings accounts you get as a direct employee. I can also invest the money in the HSA like an IRA..and have it grow over time too. In the long run, you can come out way ahead that way.

Also, if you incorporate, you can write stuff off (cell phone, mileage, internet connectivity)...and best of all, with an "S" corp, you can save a good deal of money spent on employment taxes (SS, Medicare).

I'm loyal to whomever wants to pay me. I'll work when they need, as much as they need, but, I will make money for ever second I'm there. I'll happily take that money, and invest it myself for my retirement.

Years back, I learned that the old days of company job for life was over. The companies have NO loyalty at all for employees. I figured, fine...if that's the case, then I'll treat them the same way. If I'm just a body....then they are just a paycheck, and I'll go wherever the biggest paycheck comes from.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (4, Insightful)

Moryath (553296) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807478)

They depend too much on their parents' money

Really? I hate the silver spoon assholes myself. Then again, I'm a Gen-Y who had to work my way up and had a job at age 14.

they need constant hand-holding,

Try not hiring stupid silver spoon assholes.

they have no job loyalty,

See parent post - when you can be laid off at any time, when your work doesn't give a crap about you, when the employer is constantly trying to find new and inventive ways to screw you for health insurance or even for basic wages, why should you be "loyal" to them? How about when I watched my dad, a "loyal" employee for three decades, booted out the door after his company was acquired with the equivalent of a "don't let the door hit you on the way out"???

they demand more than they're worth,

Probably so that they can have something left when the employer inevitably fucks them over.

they disrespect older employees,

Give respect, receive respect. It's a two-way street.

and they're naive about corporate culture

On the contrary, they know enough about it to know that employee "loyalty" is something their employer likely doesn't deserve and to be alert enough to know that they shouldn't expect the employer to give a shit if something happens.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (5, Insightful)

morari (1080535) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806926)

Agreed. Only the foolish feel loyalty toward their employers. Not only is it due to the lack of mutual respect (whereas you are simply a number in a sales book, not a person), but also ties into Generation Y "demanding more than they're worth". This is simply not true, and an especially laughable concept when you have lazy, ignorant executives making more in a month than most actual workers make all year. You do all of the work while some higher up makes the money--why should anyone feel loyal toward that? You'd have to be pretty naive to like being exploited.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (-1, Redundant)

anotherone (132088) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807152)

I think I see your problem- at most companies your boss makes money but -and here's the key- you also get paid. Next time you interview for a job try asking about what they'll be paying you and factoring that into your decision. I think you'll feel less exploited when you start collecting a paycheck.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (4, Insightful)

gnick (1211984) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807254)

..."demanding more than they're worth". This is simply not true, and an especially laughable concept when you have lazy, ignorant executives making more in a month than most actual workers make all year.
I agree that the situation with lazy execs making fortunes off of our labor is deplorable. But, just like anything else, you're worth what somebody's willing to pay for you. That's how the free market works. If you can find another employer that feeds its execs less and its grunts more, hire on.

If you're making $45k, but have another offer for $47k for similar levels of effort/benefits/job satisfaction, then you're worth $47k and should demand to be paid that much or jump ship. Even if you're contributions generate $250k/year for the company, you're still only worth $47k because that's all that you can market yourself for. If you were in a very scarcely populated field and could generate $250k/year, you would be worth more and could demand more. But, if $45k is all that you can demand from your employer, it's because they believe that they can replace you for someone they can pay $45k. That's how they determine your worth - Just like any other resource.

A sad situation, but not all things in life are what we'd like them to be.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (5, Interesting)

mclearn (86140) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807316)

I hate ignorant comments like this. Do you realize the massive amount of work required to run a company? Do you understand the job security you have as an employee of a company? It's *my* job to make sure you continue to have a job. It's my job to work ridiculous hours and be on call for things you can't even imagine. I have to be multi-talented, multi-disciplined, multi-tasking, and multi-personality. I have to understand the nuances of industries that aren't even related to my field. I spend massive amounts of money and personal time making sure that YOU are able to produce for me without being sidetracked by unrelated issues.

So don't tell me that I don't deserve it.

PS: For all of those people about to come back with crap-ass comments about "I should pay you more to retain you.", let me get that out of the way. I pay what I can. In fact, I go without pay to make sure you get paid. Yes, perhaps I'm in the minority, but you know what? Those years that are better than others? I'll take my fair share. If I am directly responsible for procuring 100% of the business, and you are responsible for creating a product that retains that business, then I trump you anyday. This is what people don't understand: sales *is* hard. If it were easier, you'd get paid more.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807596)

"So don't tell me that I don't deserve it. "

Bullshit wage is a matter of population size and how much that populationt will bear, wage vs skill has been decoupled for a long time. Imagine being as skilled as you are in a small population, your wage wouldn't be shit, yes you ARE exploiting people give it up. I mean no offense what-so-ever but there are generally two strategies to get rich (with a bit of back and forth):

-take a lot from a few
-Take a little bit from everybody

It's how massive corporations are able to pay insane wages to their employee's, simply by having an economy of scale and being in a strategic position in the market where demand and profit is not grossly out of line.
If I'm a CEO there's fundamental limits on my time, there's no way anyone deserves $250 fucking million dollars, I don't care who you are. Once you're making over a few hundred grand a year you're treading on very thing ice.

Don't try to pretend that execs aren't overpaid. (5, Insightful)

danaris (525051) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807682)

First of all, you certainly seem to be in the minority, judging from the figures I've seen over the past few years.

Second of all, I have to ask what you consider your "fair share", because if it's more than 300x what I made that year, I can tell you for certain it's not "fair".

Third, unless you're running a very small company (which is, of course, entirely possible), you are not personally responsible for procuring 100% of the business.

Now, don't get me wrong: unlike many slashdotters, I believe that someone with really good management skills can make a *huge* difference to a company or whatever fraction thereof he is given charge of. But you can't pretend that executive compensation in America, in general, is anything short of insane right now. Executives get brought in, proceed to take the company boldly into completely the wrong direction, lose it billions of dollars, and are sent packing with a "golden parachute" worth more money than my gross income combined over my entire lifespan.

You may very well be different. And, in all honesty, that might be the exception, and not the rule: I haven't done exhaustive research to come up with statistics on it. But I do know that the average executive salary is more than the average worker's salary by a greater percentage than (I believe) it ever has been in the past—including during the Gilded Age before there were any labour laws.

Don't even try to claim that this is the way it should be.

Dan Aris

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (4, Insightful)

globaljustin (574257) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807726)

blah blah blah...I don't sympathize. All the stuff you list that you do for your employees are things that you are SUPPOSED to do as an owner/upper management. The fact that you think you are going above and beyond the call of duty by doing basic management functions is a major problem.

My advice to you is find a few of your most talented younger employees and see if they can help you streamline the way you operate on a day to day basis. See if they can help you clean out the uneccesary, process-oriented BS in your proceedures and focus on what will make you money.

Also, please take a vacation. Judging from your post, you are pretty stressed out.

I think your heart is in the right place, you just need to rethink some things so that all of your effort isn't wasted.

So in other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807756)

You hate what you have to do, your business plan is struggling and you sometimes go without wages but because of all these negative things it's somehow your employees that are in the wrong, at fault and responsible for it?

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'd suggest you take a very hard look at your life and your business because it's clearly not working out.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (4, Funny)

Ethanol-fueled (1125189) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807390)

"90% of my job is convincing you that you don't deserve yours"

--Catbert, evil director of human resources

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22806928)

I couldn't agree more. It used to be that people would seek out a larger corporation for job security. That's no longer the case. The bigger the company the more likely it is that layoffs are to happen to appease shareholders if the company experiences a few short quarters. In a small company when things get tight, they ask you to work more, not less.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (2, Insightful)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806954)

Most companies do... Employees are considered an assets and if they lay them off there is the fact of having to hire and retrain new ones when it picks up again. Most of the time these layoffs are not from a down turns but from a buyout or mergers where they are duplicate jobs, that are no longer needed. But there is a vicious catch 22 problem if the employees are willing to work only 18 months then the company is not going to invest in them just to have them higher skilled to work for a competitor. In them olden days people stayed with the company and didn't jump on any offer even if it was more appealing. Doing so shows management that you are loyal to the company and then they will invest into you. But if you are skipping jobs then it there is no point in your investment. It is a 2 edge sword.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (1)

Captain Splendid (673276) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807014)

How about Worker loyalty?

LOL. Thanks to this dumbfuck [wikipedia.org] , we're all just replaceable cogs as far as corporate goes.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (3, Insightful)

R2.0 (532027) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807234)

Hmmm...From your link:

General approach

        * Defining the skill sets required for each job.
        * Select workers with appropriate abilities for each job.
        * Setting standards on method for performing each job.
        * Training for standard task.
        * Planning work and eliminating interruptions.
        * Wage incentive for increased output.

How many rants on /. have there been about nebulous skill requirements, jobs that don't use the skills one has, arbitrary judgments of personal performance, lack of training, lack of proper planning, and lack of raises for working your ass off?

It looks like the problem is that corporations DON'T employ Taylorism.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807134)

Is it any wonder, with tens of thousands of layoffs every couple of years, why workers don't feel a strict loyalty to the companies that employ them? If the company isn't willing to maintain their educated, trained, experienced workforce through a minor downturn, then they should expect the employees to look for better opportunities.

Layoffs are nothing new; they've been going on for decades. It's just the reaction to them that has changed. And the reality of most average layoffs is that the lowest performing employees get weeded out first. Most managers would get rid of the Gen Yers described in the article who stay at a job on average 18 months, expect everything to be exciting, and want rapid promotions before they get rid of older workers with more loyalty and reasonable expectations.

I don't see the Gen Y people as really bringing anything new to IT. The article seems to outline eager college grads who are unexperienced and unaware of how the business world really works rather than some new generation that is going to change the world. We've all been there, nothing to see here....

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807172)

No kidding. Add to the fact most Gen Y workers saw at least one parent get laid off, the lack of job loyalty should not be shocking. My father was laid off a few times when I was growing up, and at my first full time job out of college my entire department was laid off due to a corporate merger.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807236)

If someone is going to be orking me, [urbandictionary.com] then I'd expect them to be extremely loyal.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (1)

mc900ftjesus (671151) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807614)

If a company shows me "employer loyalty" I would worry about "employee loyalty." In a time where pensions are being taken away or just non-existent, I think any mention of loyalty should be shot right back in the face of every single corporation so they can eat their own words. I feel insulted that anyone should be expected to care about loyalty when employees are treated as disposable work machines. You reap what you sow. Faceless corporate America, it's called turnover, it's expensive, and you can just deal with it. My 401k follows me wherever I go, so you'll have to work a bit harder managing something competently or at least offer a compelling reason to stay. Look at it this way, if I leave for a higher salary, roll over my 401k, I win and you lose. If you give me a reasonable retirement plan that I lose if I leave the company and you owe me anyway if you fire me, well then that's something to think about if I have another offer. The way things are, salary and benefits win since you're not willing to do what's needed to keep people from leaving and I'm on my own for retirement. Which makes turning a bad company around even harder because your best people will have the easiest time leaving and you're left with people that are stuck there who probably aren't the best people to turn to in crunch time. But you only really look at the stock price, so layoff another 5% because it takes operating expenses off this quarter's report to the stock holders. Those other things are true of a lot of IT workers, but the hand holding and disrespect is true of lots of people outside the IT industry as well.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807616)

Quite so. There was an expectation of loyalty towards the employees up until the parents of the current generation. At some stage, there was a shift in opinion where the workers were seen less as people with families and more a resources.

The current generation is aware of this view. They've accepted that this is the way of things, and have accepted their time is being sold as a resource. However, they're also aware that they own this "resource", and can remove it and lease it to someone else if they want to.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (1)

Teflon_Jeff (1221290) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807670)

A-freaking-men.

This isn't the 50's, and companies now are looking for any immediate profit, usually at the cost of long-term growth.

Even worse, most management is being determined by either A) the new guy off the street, or B) whatever lackey buys the company BS and spouts it off to his co-workers.

Word to the wise, Team Spirit in Corporate America is just another term for Mob Mentality.

Re:Job Loyalty? How about orker loyalty? (1)

Laserdisc (1259554) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807674)

In the so called "old" days corporations were smaller, the quality of executives were MUCH better and were a more closely knit labour force. Not to say corporations didn't try to break labour's backs, they did and unions were formed.
I believe the main reason why worker loyalty is at an all time low is because corporations today are HUGE and most executives don't lead by example. And as with "most" workers, management have little loyalty as well. Management jumps around just as workers do to progress to bigger and better things.
Heck it's happened to me, I was given the opportunity to advance by switching corporations. I gave the first corporation every opportunity to hang on to me but in the end all they did was thank me for giving them 3 weeks notice, not even so much as a "let's talk about this". It's not a generation Y thing, it's a "trend" thing today and no one's immune not even Google at the current rate they're growing.

Generalizing Generations (4, Interesting)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806860)

These sorts of broad characterizations about the youngin's have been going on forever.

If you really want some insight into how generations interact in America, and how this interaction influences history, check out Strauss & Howe's Generations [wikipedia.org] , a book published in 1991 that still offers many insights.

Re:Generalizing Generations (4, Funny)

Kamineko (851857) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806886)

How does it stack up against Star Trek: Generations?

Re:Generalizing Generations (5, Funny)

Infonaut (96956) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807260)

How does it stack up against Star Trek: Generations?

Less shooting, less baldness, less special effects, a lot more text.

terrible (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22806864)

- Fluff piece with no real content, just meaningless anecdotal sound bites? Check

- Article annoyingly spread across multiple pages? Check

- Me wondering why this crap make it to Slashdot? Check

- Zonk? Check!

Mom's money, what's wrong with that? (2, Interesting)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806866)

Ask Bill Gates if there's anything wrong with having lots of backing when you need it. Getting time on computers in high school, going to college and having a backing were all very good for Microsoft. The same lessons and more apply today because there are far fewer "real" jobs to go around thanks to H1B stuff [programmersguild.org] . Ignoring resources is harmful.

Re:Mom's money, what's wrong with that? (1)

megaditto (982598) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807090)

Microsoft paid many billions of dollars in taxes, with Bill paying over US$ 5 billion personally. It's very impressive considering that the only thing they sell is a bunch of abstract 0's and 1's produced by their workers' brains. New engineering hires start off at $80k /year, H1B or not.

If you are any good, they'll hire you. If you aren't, you can take your xenophobia somewhere else.

Re:Mom's money, what's wrong with that? (3, Informative)

truthsearch (249536) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807320)

I guess you've never worked in human resources for a medium or large company. I don't know about Microsoft specifically, but it's very common to pay H1B employees far less than other employees. When asked why, the employees are typically told it's due to legal fees to support the H1B. I've seen people threatened to have their work visa revoked when asking for a raise that was common to all other IT workers in the company. I've also seen HR turn away every qualified citizen for a position so they could fill it with a cheaper employee on an H1B. Meanwhile the H1B was specifically created to fill positions for which no local workers qualify.

It's not xenophobia. These are things discussed openly with HR departments. It's no secret that many companies use work visas to get cheaper labor.

Re:Mom's money, what's wrong with that? (1)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807322)

Sheesh! Have things gotten so bad around here that you can't even say something good about Bill Gates without some fanboy jumping to Microsoft's defense and calling you a racist?

And what a pathetic and contradictory slander that is. The Programmer's Guild is looking out for everyone's interest. They point out that Microsoft no longer hires US workers for entry level positions, so you can stick Microsoft's starting rate up your ass. Companies abuse the H1B program to treat people like slaves [wikipedia.org] . Anyone defending it is either a fraud who does not believe in real, rights respecting immigration, or someone who needs to read and think more.

Re:Mom's money, what's wrong with that? (1)

ricebowl (999467) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807476)

because there are far fewer "real" jobs to go around thanks to H1B stuff. Ignoring resources is harmful.

For the record I'm British, and not working in the US, or for a US company. But, there's two responses to your comment; the first is that 'ignoring resources' is not harmful, it's a violation of the H1B program; foreign workers are allowed into the US only if workers with a similar skill set cannot be found locally [wikipedia.org] (I suspect that this doesn't take into account the cost of labour, but I'm not sure).

My second response regards the comment of 'fewer "real" jobs to go around.' First of all: what's a real job, as opposed to a 'non-real' job? But most importantly if a successful programmer (occupation chosen because of the primary audience of Slashdot) is brought into America surely that serves not to 'take' a job from an American (since a comparably skilled American couldn't be found) but to support the economy [techdirt.com] and, consequently create jobs? That person is going to take the wages and contribute to the local economy in some way, from buying/renting a house/apartment to using the local gym, to dining at a local restaurant. These 'service' jobs might be the 'non-real' jobs you refer to, but they provide employment and allow others to live in the local area as opposed to having to move elsewhere to find jobs/cheaper housing.

I'm not saying that everyone with a CS degree should be imported to a particular area to support an economy, but, if a company can't find someone to do the job they need to be done, why shouldn't they go elsewhere to look for their employees?

Perhaps I've mis-read your comments and, if I have, I apologise; assuming that I got it right, then I had to respond.

Re:Mom's money, what's wrong with that? (1)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807750)

A real job is one where you can apply your training. An unreal job is one you could have gotten out of high school or before that you have to take to make ends meet. It happens.

Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] and the Programmer's Guild [programmersguild.org] both explaining how the H1B program is nothing like you think but that's beside the point. My point was to take advantage of family money if you have it. Bill Gates never had to work for anyone else in his life, which proves that you don't have to work for others if you have a good enough idea and can hire the expertise to make it happen. If you crash and burn, you will have experience and the cube will still be waiting.

Disrespect older employees? (-1, Flamebait)

DoubleParadoxx (928992) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806880)

I find that pretty much everyone where I work over the age of 30 is a moron.

Re:Disrespect older employees? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807076)

Jack - you're back! God bless you Mr Keruoac.

Re:Disrespect older employees? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807080)

I thought that last year but this year I changed my mind... Actually the problem with Gen-Y is the same for every generation getting in... They think they know it all but there is a lot of details that are not taught that goes on that is actually added up more important then say making sure the App is moved off FORTRAN and put onto Ruby on Rails.

No Loyality (1)

Drollia (807891) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806884)

I think that may of us don't have any loyality to a company, because we know that most companies aren't going to have any loyality to us.

When you can be layed off to improve the bottom line, then you are going to take a better oppurtunity when one presents itself

Re:No Loyality (1)

QuantumRiff (120817) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807000)

Its not even so much being laid off to help the bottom line, its being laid off to help this quarter's bottom line, because investors want to see immediate profits. It is simply amazing to me how many companies can't see past a quarter or two. There are a few that really plan ahead, and push R&D, but not many any more.

Re:No Loyality (1)

trongey (21550) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807368)

It is simply amazing to me how many companies can't see past a quarter or two.
Why is this amazing to you? It's really a very simple relationship.

Most corporations compensate their executives with stock. Stock only generates significant wealth when it's sold. Executives make money by manipulating stock values for short-term gain. When you hear a CEO talking about keeping the stockholders happy he's talking about himself. He's probably the biggest individual stockholder.

This is why I've always said that it should be illegal to own stock in your employer. It creates an automatic conflict of interest (not to mention vast opportunities for corruption).

Re:No Loyality (1)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807042)

Unless you are have a brain and not work for the Large Corporations and get a job at a small one. Why do people think oh Ill get a job at GE, that will really impress them. Vs. Ill get a job a small company and actually have a stable job and advancement potential.

Re:No Loyality (4, Insightful)

truthsearch (249536) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807168)

I spent 10 years working for large financial companies. Everyone I knew outside work thought I had the most stable job, while a few times I was very close to being part of large layoffs. It was very hard to advance because of competition and politics with coworkers.

Now I work for a small company where I'm valued on a more personal level. As the company grows so does my position within the company. There's no room for politics. I'm not saying I'm completely loyal and will never leave, but my job is stable and generally more enjoyable. My family is no longer impressed, but they don't understand that I'm actually better off.

Re:No Loyality (1)

rootofevil (188401) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807212)

Unless you are have a brain and not work for the Large Corporations and get a job at a small one.

I are have a brain. Where do me sign up?

Re:No Loyality (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807728)

I can has job?

Riddled with stereotypes (1, Insightful)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806936)

This is a generation that's more savvy with computing than any other; they've not known an era in their lives without decent computing machines likely in the home. USB and GUIs and broadband speeds are first nature. G/Net, ARCNet, Token Ring, Phone-Net, and other schemes have never been seen by these people. BBS is an 18" tire rim, not a dial-up service. USB drives, not floppy disks, are temporary storage devices. This generation can't read paper tape and doesn't care if we used to record data on cassette tapes, in fact, cassette tapes are curiosities when you can hold the contents of hundreds, even thousands of them in a single MP3 player device.

And therefore, it's nihilistic to impose at least a portion of seemingly ancient platitudes on generations that have no context for them. I find young IT people endlessly fascinating because their boundaries are far different from my generation-- the generation that could do binary front panel program loads in assembler.

Re:Riddled with stereotypes (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807166)

I'd say there's a big difference between being completely ignorant of the technological past versus being aware of it but not having any firsthand experience with it. That is, for example, those that belittle others simply because they were raised in the time of dial-up (or time-sharing or steam engines or whatever) will likely not get too far in life. Whereas those who are aware of the history and technological progress that has been made tend to have a respect for what others went through, and also are aware that one day they too will be considered dinosaurs. There needs to be a mutual respect between generations.

Re:Riddled with stereotypes (5, Insightful)

thanatos_x (1086171) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807180)

You're a bit off on your generations, or rather those in the workforce. Even if all they needed was a HS diploma, they'd still need to be born in 1989. If they did have access to a computer at a young age, it had a floppy; USB didn't become popular until at least 98, and wasn't common until 2002 or so. I also bet they didn't get broadband until 2000+.

The point still remains that my brother has a far different experience with computers than I did, being younger. He's almost always had the internet and doesn't know the pain of a router with a 56k modem. All the same I know how to use a computer much better than he does, even when i was his age. He shows little to no interest in them, and that might make a certain age group have a sweet spot - They grew up comfortable with technological change (not any particular one, but fundamentally), but were still young enough to know a few of the inner workings of computers, back when you had to fool around for an hour or so to get a game to install or a driver to work, back when everything had different ports, and plugging something in meant rebooting, installing, rebooting... when it was cheaper to build your own computer, or when if something went wrong you couldn't just scrap the computer.

Some aspects of computing might be lost to those not computer science majors because we've done such a good job, just like much of our generation as a whole doesn't have a clue how to do carpentry, fix a car, or do basic home repair - these things are supposed to work, and when they don't you call someone else in to fix them.

Re:Riddled with stereotypes (3, Interesting)

g0bshiTe (596213) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807702)

I currently work in IT, have been the last 7 or so years. Before that I was a grease monkey, nothing I loved more than fixing a car. Today when my car breaks down, I take it to someone else. When my computer breaks down, I fix it myself. The reason I do this, is I love working on computers as much as I used to love working on cars. They are both similar to an extent, most computer fixes not software related are swapping out a part, theres 90% or better of your car fixes, diagnostics, troubleshooting. The major difference in the two for me, rather than fighting through an inch layer of grease the dirtiest thing in a PC I fight are dust bunnies. I still love working on cars, but not as much as I used to.

The fundamentals NEVER change. (2, Interesting)

khasim (1285) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807204)

And therefore, it's nihilistic to impose at least a portion of seemingly ancient platitudes on generations that have no context for them.
The fundamentals NEVER change. If they did, they would not be fundamentals. From TFA:

"Everybody in my generation wants to be a leader," says Healy. "There are 22 year-olds who already say they want a leadership position, and they're ready for that. I think it's a pretty cool thing."
Everyone on the team cannot be a leader. What they WANT and what one them thinks the others are ready for does not matter.

What matters and what will ALWAYS matter are the RESULTS.

This article is beyond stupid. It's littered with "may" and "could".

Realize that the 50 year olds of today were the kids of the 60's.

Re:The fundamentals NEVER change. (1)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807350)

Actually, they do. And I'm a member of the 1960's. And '50s. And agree that the TFA is riddled with half-truths. The basics and fundamentals are always there and needed. What's missing is the sense of reality vs the post dot-com boom/bust cycle. We need leaders. Some of them won't make it. Fine. Others will, and for the wrong reasons, but a net of good leaders will emerge. Opportunism isn't the dirty word it once was, and it's bred entrepreneurship. Some entrepreneurship has been world-changing. Other change was much more deliberate and a function of broader-based initiative. Both are necessary.

Data processing is still a science pioneered by lots of well-intentioned people. And while many practical fundamentals within that community are still needed, it also lead to the acceptance of platforms that were clearly single-vendor, and proprietary, hence monolithic and ultimately dead-ends (despite other positive qualities). Interns that I work with have many of the needed fundamentals. And some of them don't need to know the differences between EBSCDIC, Baudot, ASCII, and well, runes.

Re:Riddled with stereotypes (5, Insightful)

Prof.Phreak (584152) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807414)

I've noticed that the `new' (eh!) generation is a bit shallow in their skills or curiosity. Most can quickly pickup front end things, but for most `hard' stuff, they expect an existing library to be present.

Hypothetical example: most new developers can quickly setup a streaming video from their website, but have little or no idea how TCP/IP nor video decoding actually works. Yes, I know it's sort of a pointless thing to know when you don't "need" to know it, just saying that the previous generation seemed to have been a bit more curious about things, even if they didn't "need" to know them.

Re:Riddled with stereotypes (1)

postbigbang (761081) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807496)

Life is now a widget in a browser. Cruise google, get a link to what you need, and move on. "Classical training" is becoming just that.... like the Programming in C by K&R sitting on my shelf. Can't find the arguments to a function you need? Five seconds later, you have it. It's seemingly a bit ad hoc, but with the right fundamentals, it gets the job done. Some might reel at the thought of the lack of deep-dive training, but it's become less necessary in many disciplines. That's not making people more stupid, rather, more productive. Beowulf in my English Lit was glorious; it's a classic. So is taking a look at Stallman's code, or an early sysconfig file. Some will dive deeper and be better for it.

Company Loyalty is a myth (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22806966)

Company loyalty does not exist with respect to a company's 'loyalty' to an employee.

As an employee, my loyalty extends only to the next paycheck, and no further.

Want to assure my loyalty, treat me like a person, not a 'resource'.

Give me what I need to do my Job, and listen to how I could possibly do my job better.

Give me training, don't let the value of my skills decline.

Give me a mentor, don't just sit me at a cube and expect to learn EVERYTHING myself.

Many companies think they can just bully young employees into working long hours, for crappy pay, nope, not me. But then again, I'm in engineering, and NOT IT, so it's a bit different.

Um, no... (1)

boristdog (133725) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806984)

Yes, they have grown up with IT, so when they replace the previous IT manager who had moved there from accounting because he knew more about computers than the CEO, sure, they'll improve things.

But it doesn't mean they'll be better than a seasoned IT professional. Experience is still the best teacher. In a few years Gen Y will be bitching about these damn "Millinials" and whatever buzzword they tag on the next generation as well.

Re:Um, no... (1)

cyphercell (843398) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807402)

Gen Y == Millennials the oldest millenial is about 28 (born in 1980), so they could have about five years experience after college. funny thing I thought the job loyalty went out the window with the last half of Gen X, course I'm right there at the tail end so I could be a bit skewed, but wasn't it the 90's when the dot com bust hit and other industries suddenly panicked about paying for retirements and pensions for the baby boomers and started slashing middle management positions?

I bet I know which generation the author is from.. (5, Insightful)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 6 years ago | (#22806996)

The summary has three pretty common statements in it:

they have no job loyalty, they demand more than they're worth, they disrespect older employees,
Let's take them on individually, shall we? I think I can, since I think they all apply to me in one way or another...

No job loyalty? Well, my employer will ditch me whenever it's convenient for them, so why shouldn't I treat them the same? My older co-workers do the same. This is a fact of the modern workplace and is generation neutral.

Demand more than we're worth? Ok... Well if I have a job offer for 20% more elsewhere, I'm worth 20% more... It's not my problem that you have "no budget for raises" three consecutive years. My value increased over those years even if your shitty business model didn't. Now if you want to tell me that I demand more than I'm worth to you, then we'll talk... Or if you want to revisit the loyalty issue, maybe I'll be willing to cut you some salary slack... Either way, I also don't think this is a generational issue since many of my older co-workers are significantly overpaid for their contribution level without even needing to ask. This leads into the third point.

No respect for older co-workers? Well I'll cop to this in a conditional fashion. I have tremendous respect for some of my older co-workers. The ones that pull their weight, keep up with required knowledge, and appreciate the value of a more junior contributor than themselves. The ones that a right all the time because of what their resume says, and not due to any critical thinking, and who contribute zero to an effort beyond their experience can go suck a nut. I can put an older co-worker into one of these buckets within a few technical conversations. If somebody disagrees with me on a technical issue and tells me why with a reasoned explanation, they go in the "earned my respect, and a mental note to learn as much from them as possible". If the same situation arises and the more senior co-worker explains that their right by quoting their resume to me they go in the "probably full of shit 90% of the time" bucket.

Gen Y gets it right. (5, Interesting)

iknownuttin (1099999) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807174)

I don't know how old you are. My daughter is 26 and I noticed that she and her friends value friendships more than careers. Much more than my generation did. They also value the quality of life more. Meaning, life doesn't revolve around career or the job. Yes, they'll spend time and $$$ training and learning, but it's not the end all like my generation. I busted my ass in my career and so did my friends. My career is meaningless now and all of my "friends" have moved on.

I think the Gen Y or Millenials or whatever they're called has their priorities in order. Basing your life on your career and job is idiotic and I think that's where my generation is clueless when it comes the Gen Y'ers attitude towards work. They mistake wanting a life with apathy towards their job. Jobs come and go and are easy to get; but people who really matter to you are hard to find.

Re:Gen Y gets it right. (1)

RobBebop (947356) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807640)

Meaning, life doesn't revolve around career or the job. Yes, they'll spend time and $$$ training and learning, but it's not the end all like my generation. I busted my ass in my career and so did my friends. My career is meaningless now and all of my "friends" have moved on.

(age 25) Life revolves around whatever you make of it. I think the trend in America is to make an entertainment and social experience out of it. YouTube, MySpace, and Facebook are awesome for this. People get to seek out all sorts of like-minded individuals to share experiences with, and that is also what life is about - Experiences.

That being said, busting you rump for a career can most definitely be a significantly rewarding experience. At some point during your career, I will bet that an idea that was YOURS made it out into the world and had a positive impact. And your positive impact plays a part in the overall increase within the global standard of living that we are enjoying in America now and spreading to other countries to reduce poverty and tyranny.

The other thing is that we COULD NOT enjoy our cute little social applications if your generation had not gone out and invented the Internet. Good work on that one - by the way. Furthermore, I think THE NEXT GENERATION (kids born 2010-2030) will get the benefit of a mostly-automated production cycle on Earth because of all the technology that is currently being developed so that less human effort can produce a larger amount of usable resources --- to the point where scarcity (on Earth) is eliminated and (in my optimistic view) the competitive capitalism in our country (and the world) will devolve into a more cooperative environment where people won't be tied to the 40-hour workweek to "earn a living" the way everybody is today.

So - thank you to your generation for paving the way... and please help us young guys so we can hopefully avoid some of the mistakes that have come before us.

Re:Gen Y gets it right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807666)

I figured this out in my late twenties. It had more to do with seeing people shafted by employers than it did with being in any particular "generation". Friends were there for mutual protection. I also learned about the limitations of what friends will usually do for each other.

When your career won't support you, your friends might. MIGHT. Gen Z may well figure out that "friends" bail out on you when life changes occur, where a decent family will still stick together. Relying on friends is not a good way to go as far as I've observed so I wouldn't say Gen Y has its stuff together just yet.

Re:I bet I know which generation the author is fro (3, Insightful)

readin (838620) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807358)

No respect for older co-workers? Well I'll cop to this in a conditional fashion. I have tremendous respect for some of my older co-workers. The ones that pull their weight, keep up with required knowledge, and appreciate the value of a more junior contributor than themselves.
One common arrogance of youth is to presume one knows enough to adequately judge the qualities of the old. I'm not really old yet, but I've learned as I've left youth behind is that I didn't know nearly as much as I thought I did, and that I didn't even recognize that I needed to learn much of what I've learned. In fact you should respect older co-workers, not give them a blank check of course, but respect them. You don't know what wisdom they may have.

Re:I bet I know which generation the author is fro (1)

G Wonder (1228256) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807416)

This article is a nice generalization, but in my situation it flies in the face of the reality. I'm a recent graduate, 2 years out of school, and as far as I can tell this doesn't describe myself or several of my classmates. Not to say that it doesn't describe some, however I'm sure that I could easily find several older individuals in the field that act the same way as these supposed "Generation Yers"

1. They have no job loyalty, they demand more than they're worth, they disrespect older employees,

I've been with the same company since a year before I graduated and have committed to that company for at least another couple years. As long as my boss treats me fairly in comparison to other emplioyers I'll stay with him as long as I can.

2. Demand more than we're worth.

I'm the lowest paid of all the older software developers in the company, even though I do as much or more than them. I chalk it up to the fact that they have more experience and have earned a slightly higher pay scale. If I was egregiously under paid I may have a problem but I don't have a problem with experience based pay provided we don't have any dead weight (see my next point).

3. No respect for older co-workers?

I've always started out my relationship with any older co-workers with an attitude of respect. I generally ask a lot of questions and make sure that I do my best to explain my decisions in a logical, technical manner so they can be judged on their merits alone.
The problem starts occurring when you find an older individual that has decided that because they've been around for 30 years that they can stop learning. For instance I had a contractor come to work for us that professed to have 30 years of experience and has build dozens of applications for hand helds (we contracted him to build a PPC application). He was given a fairly standard MVC design, written by myself, to implement. He then proceeded on to ignore everything in the design docs and do it his own way. There was SQL code in the presentation classes, no real mapping of the database to any sort of object model, exceptions disappeared into unhandled try catch blocks. He didn't really know SQL so he created a workaround to store long lists for searching in flat files instead of indexing the appropriate database tables.Basically he showed a complete lack of ignorance about what he was doing. I'm sure he would have been fine programming C on a Palm. But when it came to using a modern OO framework backed by a SQL database he was completely lost. And rather than admit that he doesn't know what's going on, when I've called him on several technical issues he invariably falls back on the argument of "I've been doing this for 30 years. What have you written?"

So if in the face of ignorance from an older individual at a certain point it's hard to be anything but disrespectful of a moron. However, on the other side of that coin I work with some older programmers who have sage like knowledge of the systems we work on. They understand design concepts and technologies stretching back to when I was a kid playing Duke Nukem on my parents PC. I listen to everything they say, I constantly find myself asking advice to about my decisions because the chances are they'll see something I missed. And any critisism that they offer is generally well founded and should be considered if not followed. To those sort of "Older" employees I have nothing but the utmost respect.

So as an individual who is being generalized by the article I think the autor should really understand that theirs all sorts of personality types out there that fit his descriptions. Age or your generation has less to do with these sorts of behaviors and attitudes than the person who holds them.

 

Younger workers are bolder and more informed. (4, Interesting)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807022)

As easy as that. It's not easy to change a whole corporate culture, so in the end you have to break the rules to get more efficient.

For example - a friend told me that due to company policies, the SSL port was blocked by the company, so there was no way to securely communicate with the outside (or between the workers themselves, for example, by testing the network - a lot of them used MSN). What kind of policy is that? Just to keep information from leaking without being detected? How about emergencies? People then transferred files and information via open chat, where EVERYBODY could see it. Including non-loyal employees. Last thing I knew is that my friends' team ended up using http tunnelling. In the end, nothing was gained and the IT team spent more time than they should to just work around stupid company policies.

Another example: Forbidding non-default apps, I think this was discussed before. So you can't for example install software that will make your Windows safer, like Ad-aware or Firefox.

This is the problem about management. You just put an idiot in front of the department and have him send orders here and there. But programmers are hackers by nature, we find out how things work and find a way to make them more efficient - whether authorized or not. And the difference between younger and older people is that older people tend to play more by the rules - even when they know the rules are WRONG.

A "safe computing" seminar given by a security expert, could make things much more efficient at work, and educate employees to act smarter instead of having to babysit them with counterproductive policies.

Re:Younger workers are bolder and more informed. (1)

Fahrvergnuugen (700293) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807282)

This reminds me of a situation I encountered with a customer who's security department banned the use of SSH because "they couldn't see what was going on" in the tunnel.

Security Expert here.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807488)

I am a CISSP, I guess that makes me a 'Security Expert' (personally I thing the cert is basically bullshit, except for the fact that it makes management types blindly believe whatever I say is the infosec gospel, and I do like that!)

There's a simple and evil reason why companies do wholesale blocking of SSL. We do not want you encrypting your traffic, because we are recording everything you do. Maybe not at *your* company, but that's what we're doing here, so that if we ever need it, we've got clear evidence to prosecute any soon-to-be-former-employees. And yes, we fire and prosecute without any warnings or 'internal disciplinary actions'. The last (former) employee to leak confidential data to an outside party is now sitting in a state prison cell for the next couple years, due to the seriousness of what she leaked. We act swiftly and like clockwork in these matters. There were immediately a dozen new candidates available to fill that vacant position too.

As frustrating as some things are.. (1)

Junta (36770) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807746)

I'll put aside the inaccuracy of 'the SSL port', and assume you meant http SSL and/or imap SSL, etc. This I cannot think of a defense for.

In terms of third-party applications, they do have good reason for blocking software. Namely, most all users are in the mindset of 'hey, it's free', without reviewing the details of the licensing. At my work, lawyers review licenses of popular 'freeware' and often reject it due to legal liabilities. One *extremely* common thread is that all this 'free' software is 'free (for non-commercial use)'. Particularly among Windows closed-source freeware, the software is intended to genuinely aid and/or advertise to the home user and recover the costs through commercial usage. These vendors love their ubiquitous home product driving people to defy policy and in the end, often the company buys a large license rather than fight the tide. My experience is that companies have an existing contract to cover that type of application, but they have chosen one that has fallen behind the curve in competitiveness, so users are frustrated. Said company doesn't want to jump ship (costly and annoying to users) unless it's overwhelmingly clear that the fundamental functionality of their chosen product can't do the job anymore. The problem is, despite being annoying, sluggish, etc, generally underneath it still gets the same job done, just more annoying to users.

This must be an April Fool's Joke, right? (0)

eprparadocs (992983) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807026)

Can this be serious? What a collection of garbage...I know quite a few of these younger generation types that can find their A** with both hands! Does this mean they all have that problem? Of course not.

Gen Z? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807034)

Do the think tanks that come up with these names know something we don't? What happens after Generation Z?

Re:Gen Z? (1)

Hal_Porter (817932) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807428)

Once Generation Y has been running things for a while civilisation will break down. Here (from) TFA is the proof

The average timespan that a Gen Y employee will spend at any single job is about 18 months, notes Ryan Healy, founder of Brazen Careerist, an online career site aimed at Gen Y.

To keep a Millennial interested, companies will have to create an atmosphere for them that replicates the first six months on a job, over and over. "Most jobs provide you with a learning curve that's steep at first, then all of the sudden you're doing the same thing every day," says Healy. "It gets boring, so you leave."

"Everybody in my generation wants to be a leader," says Healy. "There are 22 year-olds who already say they want a leadership position, and they're ready for that. I think it's a pretty cool thing."

"All the technology-driven people I encounter are really interested in the business side of an enterprise," says Healy. "They actually go into IT because they want to be entrepreneurial, not because they they're especially technical.""All the technology-driven people I encounter are really interested in the business side of an enterprise," says Healy. "They actually go into IT because they want to be entrepreneurial, not because they they're especially technical."
Actually, they sound like they have too much testosterone to me. If you get one put next to you, slip a birth control pill into his coffee when he's not paying attention. Theoretically he should quieten down quite a bit and start to gain weight.

Gen Y (4, Interesting)

rijrunner (263757) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807096)


    I think the big difference is not anything they point out here.

    1) Face it, computers are basically as intimidating as cash registers. They are tools. Nothing more, nothing less. There is a mind set in a lot of workers - of any age - to be intimidated by certain technologies. Younger workers are more likely to be less intimidated by computers as they are familiar with them. Stick a Gen-Y in front of the controls of a 747 and you get a different reaction. Basically, the Gen-Y's are being presented with a technology for which they have a framework to be able to approach the technology as a tool, not a roadblock.

      Seriously.. in the IT field, we can tell who will be good at IT based upon how intimidated they are by the box coming in the door.

  2) As to length of time at a job.. well, the days of going down and getting that job at the town mill/factory and working until retirement are gone. I recall my father working a couple years at one job, then moving to the next job, then the next trying to build up that resume so he could land a job at one of the major plants in the area. When you get down to it, I think a lot of the view of how-things-were is nothing more than mis-remembering how things were. Back then, the US was where the jobs were and the companies planned to stay around awhile and there were unions to act as a balance. Companies promoted from within. Usually.

    Now? It was not the Gen-Y's who moved the garment industry to Central America and China in the 1970's. They weren't even born yet. They did not move the auto industry to Japan. They did not move the semi-conductor industry to Taiwan. They aren't the ones moving IT jobs to India now.

    They are the ones who are going to have to deal with those moves. They are the ones who have to come up with a coping mechanism for the current state of business.

    And, one of those realities is that there is no industry or company that there is a reasonable expectation of retirement in 30 years. Get a job in IT and, even if it looks good now, what will the new CEO do in 5 years?

    While I think there is hope for the individuals that comprise Gen-Y and a lot of companies, I don't see too much overlap in their outlooks. Companies do *not* have much loyalty to their employees and will look at the bottom-line first. The employees need to do the same. Gen-Y seems to better adapted to this sort of reality as it is the one they grew up in.

Can i mod the description flamebait? (3, Interesting)

blhack (921171) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807106)

The description is just flat out wrong.
Employees today (skilled employees, not "data input specialists") are OVER educated for their jobs. Think about how common it is for people to be in college these days. EVERYONE has a bachelor's degree in something. Schools are pumping out MBAs by the Auditorium load. The sad thing is that these people are UNDER paid.
Their bosses expectations are also WAY too high. People work 60+ hours a week for 30,000 a year. These are people with college degrees! These same people are given HUGE ammounts of responsibility, but very little authority to actually take care of their responsibilities without interaction from "higher-ups".

The pay scales need to change.
$30,000 a year might have been enough money to live on in 1990, but it isn't anymore. Try and rent an apartment in a major city in this country on a $30,000 a year salary. Now pay your power bill, your internet bill (so that you can work even while you're AT HOME), pay your car payment, your insurance, buy the clothes that meet your companies dress code, oh yeah, and maybe even buy food while you're at it. Don't even THINK about buying gas for that car too.

As far as disrespect towards older employees:
This is just ridiculous. Age should NOT be an issue related to making decisions. It should be based on experience, and knowledge. If I am more experience, and more knowledgeable about a topic then you are, you're damned right I'm going to tell you if you are forcing me to do something that is going to make ME look bad. /rant over.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (3, Interesting)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807198)

$30,000 a year might have been enough money to live on in 1990, but it isn't anymore. Try and rent an apartment in a major city in this country on a $30,000 a year salary. Now pay your power bill, your internet bill (so that you can work even while you're AT HOME), pay your car payment, your insurance, buy the clothes that meet your companies dress code, oh yeah, and maybe even buy food while you're at it. Don't even THINK about buying gas for that car too.

FWIW, I lived for two years in Chicago on US$12,000. I had no problem making ends meet. If you live in a large city, you don't need a car because public transportation is adequate. You can bargain with your local neighbourhood dry cleaner's if you are giving them suits to press on a regular basis. I paid all my bills and evidentally had a lot left over, because I bought hundreds of CDs and books in that period. Now, I reside in Finland on what is probably an even small budget and get by just fine.

What you really need a lot of money for in the U.S. or anywhere is raising a family, but if as a single person you can't get buy on a small income, you should really check to see if you have a hole in your pocket.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (1)

blhack (921171) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807332)

If you live in a large city, you don't need a car because public transportation is adequate. You can bargain with your local neighbourhood dry cleaner's if you are giving them suits to press on a regular basis.
Chicago, new york, and the Bay area are probably the ONLY places in the country where that actually applies.

I live in Phoenix. There is little or NO public transportation here (at least not that goes to and from my work). There is no "neighborhood" anything. There are actually LAWS in the city that prevent this from happening because it wouldn't be "pretty".

And what job were you working that required a suit and only payed 12k a year?
I call BS.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (1)

Doctor Faustus (127273) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807378)

Chicago, new york, and the Bay area are probably the ONLY places in the country where that actually applies.
Also definitely Washington D.C., and maybe Boston.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807694)

I live in DC, and the public transit is not good enough to get around unless if you want to stay within a few miles of the Washington Monument. I am able to get to work on the bus, and do my daily shopping that way, but anything beyond that requires a car, or spending a lot of money on taxis. Good luck trying to get somewhere outside the beltway with public transit. It's too bad really, because the roads are choked with cars.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (1)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807462)

And what job were you working that required a suit and only payed 12k a year?

I was getting 12K a year in student loan surpluses. I bought suits because I like to look nice. Oh, I should mention that during that period I even had enough left over to fly back and forth to Romania a couple of times a year. There's no BS involved. You can see the travelogues on my website.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (1)

Kelz (611260) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807520)

Wow, so you must've been paid under $600 rent then. At minimum $780 for a year for public transportation (assuming $3 a day). Thats $7980 just spent on rent and transportation. You have ~$4k left. I could see you eating ramen and salt for the entire year, but thats it.

I'm basing my rent at $600, because thats about as cheap as you can find right now in the bay area anywhere close to transportation, with a roomate. If I lived near work I could rent a studio for $1600 a month, in the crappy part of town. Which is about half of my monthly income.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807558)

I have a huge hole in my pocket - student loan debt.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807326)

The pay scales need to change.
$30,000 a year might have been enough money to live on in 1990, but it isn't anymore. Try and rent an apartment in a major city in this country on a $30,000 a year salary. Now pay your power bill, your internet bill (so that you can work even while you're AT HOME), pay your car payment, your insurance, buy the clothes that meet your companies dress code, oh yeah, and maybe even buy food while you're at it. Don't even THINK about buying gas for that car too.


And yet for the past few generations, those that came before you had to go through the exact same thing. This is precisely what the article is talking about with regards to salary. Pay doesn't come with education, it comes with experience.

Re:Can i mod the description flamebait? (2, Insightful)

barzok (26681) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807564)

And yet for the past few generations, those that came before you had to go through the exact same thing. This is precisely what the article is talking about with regards to salary. Pay doesn't come with education, it comes with experience.
The portion you're missing here is that relative to salaries, education is far more expensive than it was in our parents' generation. In short, people are graduating from degree programs (Bachelor's or Master's) with more debt than ever before, while starting salaries aren't keeping up. By the time you're done paying for all your loans and necessities, it's getting harder to put gas in the $300 car and keep healthy food stocked in the fridge.

Examples:

A year's tuition, room & board at my alma mater (a private school) is about 40% higher than it was when I was a student there - 9 years ago. That outpaces inflation by a good margin. Have starting salaries for the position I got out of college gone up 40% over that same time period? Somehow I doubt it.

My wife has a Master's degree (for about 4 years now), and her annual salary is half of the outstanding balance on the loan she had to take out to get that degree to get the job (state school for her undergrad work, private for her Master's). And she gets paid better than 75% of people in our area in similar positions. So no, the "well, go somewhere that will pay you more" mantra doesn't hold here - there is nowhere else for her to go to get more money in her field.

Same old story (4, Insightful)

bbasgen (165297) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807120)


  It is the same old story, retold generation after generation. I wonder how much of this cycle is a part of natural life, and how much of it comes from ignorance? After all, you'd think people would clue in that when they were young they heard the same kinds of things they are now telling a new generation of young folks. This at least seems to be a tangible way to lesser the effects of such nonsense; because the young won't so strongly revile older generations without their antecedents being so intolerable to the change their own seeds have sown.

  While change may be harder to accept the older you get, is it possible that this concept too is being challenged? It is one thing to be a farmer or an industrial worker all your life -- surely being intolerant of change is almost inevitable here. Yet, in such a dynamic economy, with jobs changing constantly, and information accessibility just beginning to reach extraordinary heights -- is it possible that tolerance of change will be ingrained in the coming generation? Imagine the kind of changes that would likely mean for society as a whole!

tech familiarity is limited to household toys (3, Interesting)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807140)

The claim in the article is that since these people grew up with technology they have a better idea of how to make purchases.

So far as I am aware, none of these guys grew up in a datacentre, with terabytes of enterprise storage, robotic backups, commercial quality databases or corporate security policies. To try and scale up from having a Nintendo as a child, to being able to instantly grasp the complexities of a mulitnational network infrastructure is a bit of a leap.

If people think that because they have always had a PC or a Mac, that qualifies them to have an opinion on "IT" (whatever that is) then there are going to be some rather big surprises coming.
However that could explain a lot of the more egregious IT problems in industry and commerce.

in other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807206)

New techno-weenies have found clever ways to re-invent just about everything that has been done before. Not being able to read or understand history, they write the same programs over and over, come up with the same engineering principals that have been around since the 1800s, refuse to try to understand why things are the way they are in any environment, in all cases due to their short-sightedness, slapped in the back of the head by management or senior employees. "What the hell are you doing, use this, and this, it's done now, get it?"

Realize I didn't say all new graduates. Many times young people refuse to ask questions in a work environment. Exploring, doing things on your own, on your own time has always been around. This is not just a generation-? thing. Exploring is fine, but do it on your own time, when you have a sound solution let me hear it. Otherwise don't waste my time. Where new hires get in trouble will always be not asking questions, re-inventing the wheel, and trying to optimize something where they do not have available the why and how of the system they are trying to optimize.

This is good? (3, Insightful)

wytcld (179112) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807214)

"All the technology-driven people I encounter are really interested in the business side of an enterprise," says Healy. "They actually go into IT because they want to be entrepreneurial, not because they they're especially technical."
Certainly fits with what I see: 20ish kids who come in mixing MBA-style buzzwords with techie-style buzzwords and not really understanding either. The article recommends keeping them from being bored by fast-tracking them to management. Won't that make for some corporate brilliance!?

I've been to parties in years past with young derivatives traders oh-so-impressed that they were of the generation that had removed all risk from our financial markets. Surely kids who have gotten tech degrees and jobs, but basically find tech boring and so mostly want the thrill (and money!) of a fast track to upper management can make the rest of our industries just as brilliant as it's turned out the financial sector is. Oh yeah. Let's bet the economy of the 2010's on this batch of clowns.

reinventing IT (1)

fpgaprogrammer (1086859) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807226)

my generation won't reinvent IT. we're too busy building super-poke and then wasting days of time using it on the job.

Every Generation Is Like This (4, Insightful)

gsslay (807818) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807258)

What's with the fuss? Every generation is like this.

The previous one thinks they're feckless and idle, the new one thinks they're god's gift. The previous one had radical and new ideas in their day, the new one has radical and new ideas of their own. So all this stuff about "different cos they grew up with technology" is nothing new. Every generation "grew up with technology" of their time, they're nothing special.

My bet is that in 30 years time we'll still be reading stuff about the latest generation "growing up with technology" and how this is overhauling the preconceptions of previous generations, whose own "growing up with technology" is apparently no longer good enough.

More than they're worth? (1)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807266)

CEOs make more than they're worth. Young, entry level workers make a lot less than they're worth. Then again, who decides worth in north america? the market.

And gen-Y-ers are more tech savvy, so ... it isn't a surprise that they make better tech decisions.

Some perspective on respect (2, Interesting)

MikeRT (947531) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807270)

I'm 24, my section manager is 37 and my department manager is 44.

When my department manager called design meetings on products he wanted to design, I frequently shot down his ideas.

Why?

Because they're so bad that a 24 year old with 2 years out of college can pick them up with just a spot check from looking at his ideas. I can't disclose the details for the usual reasons, but suffice it to say that the ideas ranged from "no one would buy it because no one could use it" to "you might get our customers arrested for trying to market a product that can evade European telecommunication laws."

Let me tell you, it's hard working someone who is nearly twice your age, makes probably 3 times more than you do, and you know has no freakin' idea about how to design a product and get it out there to the customer, especially when he originally came from a technical background. It's hard because of the fact that everytime you interact with them, you feel like you are in a twilight zone where competence varies directly with youth.

Here's a fact, that hopefully people will learn someday. There is little connection between age and wisdom. Age will in fact make those who lack wisdom even worse because it gives them time to compound their foolishness.

Some truth on both sides, as usual (1)

Exp315 (851386) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807302)

I have to laugh at some of these comments. I run a small high-tech company with a nice mix of old and young workers, and I see the differences in attitude every day, but somehow we all manage to get along. For the most part the young workers really are very good at keeping up with current technology and making good decisions on IT purchases. I usually just listen to their justifications briefly and then tell them to go ahead and do what they think is best. On the other hand, confirming some cliches, I can tell you that the older workers are the only ones who clean up around the office - the young workers wouldn't lift a finger to clean the common areas to save their lives without their mommy telling them to do it. :-)

Is their value positive? (0, Troll)

Jekler (626699) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807304)

I don't deny that Generation Y workers can provide value. The question is whether that value outweighs the detriments. The overwhelming sentiment among them is that "I won't be loyal to a company because it won't be loyal to me." or restated as "Me first." The problem I see with that attitude is that they project their own disloyalties onto the company. They're job hopping because they assume the company will dump them.

They can't understand that a company will actually be loyal to them because they don't stay long enough to enjoy having seniority. An entire career built around perpetually being "The New Guy". A good company will be loyal to you, especially for specialized skilled workers. The people who get screwed out of companies are (usually) middle management as their job functions often become blurred and overlaps with the administrative duties of top-tier production workers (For example, Project Leader vs. Lead Programmer). Engineers, developers, technicians, and any sort of production workers are usually the last ones to lose their job and that's only if the company is truly in dire straits.

Look at people like Andrew Koenig, Barbara E. Moo, Bjarne Stroustrup, and John Carmack. They've been loyal to their companies and the companies have rewarded them handsomely for it, allowing them to work with virtually any technology they want to. As a counter-example, look at John Romero. Brilliant guy, but his lack of loyalty and over-confidence in his abilities lead to failure. And that's where I see the majority of Generation Y workers headed, careers like John Romero's, except without ever hitting the high note. What a Generation Y worker "could" do or "might" bring to a company is meaningless if they're going to leave for a different company before any of it comes to fruition.

Generation Y workers have the potential to bring valuable ideas and contributions to a company, but they need to temper those ideas with a traditional work ethic so some of that potential turns into real value.

Enterprise software and hardware? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807442)

I think a big change between "Gen Y" and the older generation is probably going to be a rejection of enterprise software and hardware (particularly software). I mean, when it's appropriate, it makes sense to have larger-scale, fault-redundant storage and other hardware and software. But, quite a bit of the enterprise software just sounds like there's a nightmare to deploy, buggy, slow, and a general piece of crap. Then, after years and 100s of millions to "deploy" the app, it's out of date and the company should really be working to deploy the NEXT version. I think Gen Y will reject this unless these enterprise frameworks are improved significantly, instead deploying apps with other frameworks that are less buggy and less resource-intensive.

if both the CEO and the janitor take the day off.. (1)

mbaGeek (1219224) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807610)

... the one that will be missed is the janitor ;-)

I don't think employees are more or less loyal today than they were X years ago. People (i.e. "basic human nature") haven't fundamentally changed in thousands of years - what changes are our expectations.

For example if you grew up in the middle of the great depression your expectations are much different than if you grew up in the middle of the "free love hippy culture," and if you grew up in the 80's and 90's your expectations will be much different than either of the former...

Loyalty/respect must be earned so it should be pointed out that a lot of the "loyalty" of past generations was from the top down, which of course resulted in loyalty from the employees (that reminds me of my favorite labor union bumper sticker - "Together we bargain, separately we beg" - for no particular reason)

The really scary thing is that (in times of "trouble") people are willing to give up a lot for "stability" (in all aspects of life).

Company loyalty (4, Insightful)

Daishiman (698845) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807620)

Here's a nice example of why the current generation has no loyalty to its employers.

I work in the same place my father did. He's been working at the same company for 25 years. When he got there there was a clear expectation that it was a place where you could develop a carreer, and the company made efforts to retain employees. Good maternal/paternal leave, extended health benefits, country club, child care, discounts for many vacation places, gifts for employees' children for Christmas (I recall they were amazing gifts; I got a chemistry set and a bicycle on two of those years), a baby shower gift package for newborns with towels, diapers and food.

20 years later, and all of that has completely vanished. One generation later and none of that is to be seen, and I doubt if there's some corporation today that has such an extensive benefits package on what once were excellent benefits but were considered within the norm.And the thing is, some of those benefits didn't add up to that much monetarily, but they did at least give the impression that the company took extra steps to take care of you.

So, tell me again, why do these people deserve my loyalty now when it is clear that I could be laid off any minute without them looking back?

They make smarter greener IT purchases? (2, Insightful)

ellem (147712) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807700)

Who gives a fuck? Show up to work on time. Stop texting during 15 minutes meetings. Basically STFU and do your job well enough so that I trust you to make your own decisions. Stop questioning everything because at the end of the day your MySpace page experience is bullshit.

Gen Y here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22807710)

I'm a Gen Y worker and I have to disagree with a lot of what is in the article.

I'm 23 and a year out of school.

Firstly Mom and Dad give me $0. I haven't gotten any cash from them since Junior year of college. I save my money I have 15,000 in the bank from one year of work(Hence posting as AC).

To tell you the truth, I am not loyal. Why should I be? I have no delusions that the company is loyal to me when I see how they act. So why should I be loyal to them?

I am 23 and I am making key policy decisions for the directors of engineering and marketing. They make 4X what I do, yet I am making the big calls....

Just my opinion... (1)

fluffykitty1234 (1005053) | more than 6 years ago | (#22807742)

I think the issue is much more one of how corporate culture has changed over the decades. Companies of past decades invested in their employees, and provided career paths for them. Most engineering and IT jobs now basically have no career path, except for backstabbing your way to the top. Also, most companies had other benefits to make you want stay, for example they had these things called pensions. Of course now that the pension funds are going under, younger people want nothing to do with those, don't blame them, I don't either. At the time tough pensions were a huge incentive to stay at the same company.

Nowadays, there's really no incentive to stay at the same company, and most companies are willing to just work you until you drop and then replace with the next person standing in line.

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