Scholarships From FOSS Organizations? 348
Athaulf writes "I'm a high school kid with big dreams of prestigious technology schools like MIT or Cal-Tech. The problem is, my upper-middle class family had more down to Earth plans for me and my college choices (about $30,000/year more down to Earth, actually), so financial aid and college savings won't come anywhere near MIT's price tag. However, I've been programming in C for a while now, and might release a GPL'd Linux app soon. With this self-taught programming experience, academic merit, and plenty of extra curricular activities, are there any FOSS supporting organizations who might grant me a scholarship for my contributions? Do companies like Google or Red-Hat offer scholarships to big name schools in return for a few years of work after college?"
How 'bout UC Berkeley? (Score:2, Funny)
umm (Score:2, Informative)
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Join the Army (Score:3, Funny)
Hmmmmm... maybe join the Canadian Army instead.
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But why is it that there were so many posts responding to this kid's question, but none of them went anywhere near the topic: "Scholarships that support FOSS" ? I wish I could post a more valuable comment, kid. I am impressed that you decided to not use your family's financial limitations as an excuse to skip applying to MIT / Caltech. Ambition is good -- as long as you know how to cope with failures.
If I were in your place, I would look at some very highly regarded public schools too.
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Re:Join the Army (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Join the Army (Score:5, Informative)
Listen, I don't love the military in any sense, but as a practical choice, it's not as bad as many folks make it out to be. Someone with an engineering degree isn't simply a "warm body" to the military, especially if they're coming straight into the military from college rather than having gone through college after the military in order to become an officer. There are different career paths within the military, especially Navy, that can lead to many different places, and that pay incredibly well.
Re:Join the Army (Score:4, Informative)
I suppose I'm just a bit cynical about trusting the military's ability to use people's talents correctly, but I hope I didn't make the military out to be a bad choice, since I came out of it with the ability to step into a decent career. It's probably even a bit better than corporate America in terms of the density of stupid people and bad decisions. And it is true that making a choice like joining the Navy is a good way to avoid landing at a guard shack in Iraq with a rifle.
However, I still don't think the DoD is using active duty military personnel to do a lot of the actual research and engineering tasks, but that's just based on my experience with the Navy. All the people I worked with that were doing those jobs--like nuclear research and power plant design, for example--were civilian employees or contractors, every single one. Maybe they were former enlisted or officers in that field, but they weren't able to do any of the actual "design/build/program something" jobs until they were hired as civilians and put in their time in the civilian side. The active duty officers in those technical fields were little more than supervisors/managers of the enlisted people, and (again, in my limited experience) the enlisted guys actually had most of the direct experience with the technology, while the officers did a lot of admin/paperwork and stood the occasional supervisory watch.
So I still maintain that for 99%+ of the cases, going into the military, with or without a degree, in a technical, not-so-likely-to-be-on-front-lines field, is more likely to result in:
- Spending 8+ hours per day sitting in front of a panel full of instruments or wall full of valves
- Supervising somebody sitting in front of a panel full of instruments or wall full of valves
- Cleaning something
- Painting something
- Doing paperwork
- Supervising people cleaning and painting things
than in doing research. However, having that experience for 6, 12, or 20 years would put one in a good spot to move on to doing R&D for the military for the equipment you used to work with. It just doesn't seem right to me to pitch the military as a good option for jumping into a research opportunity for anybody except the very top-notch graduates in a field.Re: (Score:2)
The key is to research what jobs
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The key is to research what jobs are there and don't believe the recruiter; get anything in writing.
I think that's probably the best single piece of advice that can be given to somebody looking into any job that requires X years of commitment. I worked around a few people that got crappy jobs in the military despite having qualifications (degrees, etc.) for much better jobs, most likely because they met the wrong recruiter that had a quota to make.
8+ - I want your billet. More like 16+; including weekends once you through in drills and fixing stupid crap sailors do when they aren't busy.
Eh, I wanted to be conservative, since there are some niches in the military where it seems like having to be there for more than an hour after the flag goes
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Oh noes! I've been busted! Honestly, though, maybe I'll give you that it's not the best possible choice if you are the caliber of person that can get accepted to MIT. It's not a bad deal if you're stupid like me and can't get a scholarship anywhere to save your life.
"If that happens to be a place where you get shot at (and there seem to be quite a lot of those nowadays), then that's where you're going, no matter what your degree or where you got it."
That is simply untrue.
Do you mean that there's not a lot of "gonna get shot at" posts? Ok, maybe there aren't that many; maybe if we were at war or something there might be a lot of such posts, but what are the odds of that? Or are you are saying that if they n
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But no, joining up doesn't automatically mean you're going to Iraq, but there's never any guarantee that you won't. I know a guy who joined the Navy and ended up in the sandbox managing munitions. That's right -- he joined the Navy and ended up
Re:Join the Army (Score:5, Insightful)
It's great that you are so aware of all the help Canada has been giving you in Afghanistan. It may come as a surprise that they have been shooting at our soldiers [www.cbc.ca] too. I'm so glad their sacrifices are appreciated by our southern ally.
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Education is an investment (Score:4, Insightful)
If you think that's too much, go to a good community college for the first two years, transfer, and still get that MIT degree. The introductory classes are generally taught better at some of these places.
Or, most states schools have great programs, diverse people, and provide excellent education.
And no, counting cards will not pay your tuition.
Re:Education is an investment (Score:5, Informative)
Pretty he didn't mean his parents would pay $30k, he meant they wanted to pay $30k less than what MIT costs. If they included housing costs, that means $15k/year, if they weren't including that then they would only be offering $5k/year.
Doesn't discount your other points, but I believe clarification was needed.
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And Education in Europe IS REALLY CHEAP (Score:2)
Meanwhile in several countries across Europe (specially such as Germany, and Switzerland) the tuition are dead cheap and the access to universities isn't limited.
In Switzerland, for example, tuition is around 1k/yr (unless you also work somewhat in the university, in which case the tuition is even lower), in most place swiss student only have to apply to start a bachelor, and foreign students can apply as long as they pass exams to prove t
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If your parents will foot 30k, that's only 15k year you need to pay.
I think he meant his parents were thinking 30k/yr less than what MIT costs -- not that they were willing to pay 30k.
If you think that's too much, go to a good community college for the first two years, transfer, and still get that MIT degree.
The chances of this are EXTREMELY slim. MIT takes a MAXIMUM of 4 transfer students a year and sometimes they don't take any. I happen to know of two community college students that transferred to MIT, but they were 15 year old, home-schooled siblings. Only the most exceptional people can transfer in. It is harder than getting in as a freshman because you have to hit the ground running at the
MIT's website... (Score:4, Interesting)
MIT's website says financial aid is guaranteed for admitted students.
http://web.mit.edu/sfs/financial_aid/mitgo_undergrad.html [mit.edu]
I suppose I don't have an answer to the original question, but get their financial aid folks on the horn and see what they have in the way of work study, internships, etc. Whatever you got back on your FAFSA probably isn't the last word in the matter.
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Indeed, most of the high-caliber schools (Ivy league, MIT, a few others) have what is called "need-blind" admissions. What they do is evaluate each applicant independent of ability to pay. If you're qualified to attend, then you get in, and then it's the responsibility of the financial aid department to make sure you can afford to go there. More than half the students at Harvard, for example, receive some form of financial aid (and I think it's been as high as 80% some years) and a large fraction of tho
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Indeed, most of the high-caliber schools (Ivy league, MIT, a few others) have what is called "need-blind" admissions. What they do is evaluate each applicant independent of ability to pay. If you're qualified to attend, then you get in, and then it's the responsibility of the financial aid department to make sure you can afford to go there. More than half the students at Harvard, for example, receive some form of financial aid (and I think it's been as high as 80% some years) and a large fraction of those students pay nothing at all.
Very true. Amusingly, I paid less at Harvard than I would have at my local community college.
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study abroad (Score:4, Informative)
In a lot of European states you can get away with 0 in tuition fees or a very moderate fee of a 1000 per year. For $30k / year you can live a very comfortable life as a student in Europe.
Also, having studied abroad is something that would look very good on your CV.
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CheerS!
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Yeah, thanks. Come over here and leech off of the system we have built on our (very high) taxes.
I would rather have foreign students who are intelligent and hard working (and who hopefully choose to live here even after getting their degree) than stupid locals.
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You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure what CS guys get at MIT that they won't be eligible to find at any other college. But if you work your ass of at any other college, with the grades and extras to prove it, I don't see how it matters.
Unless of course you just want to get the "MIT" label for the brand name.
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but then i guess that's what higher education has fallen to these days.
Re:You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:5, Insightful)
When you go to an average school, you'll be surrounded by average students. On the plus side, you might stand out as exceptional. On the down side, you will have relatively few other students who are as smart, ambitious, and interested as you are. It does make a difference.
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In smaller schools you get the same education but opportunity is easier because you are just the best in your program. People like to bring out the success of their grads. But what portion of them are Successes and What portion are still w
Get Your Facts Straight (Score:3, Informative)
First of all, it's Stanford, not "Standford."
Second of all, do some basic research before talking out your ass. While both Brin and Page went to Stanford for graduate school, for undergrad, Brin went to the University of Maryland, and Page went to the University of Michigan.
Re:You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:4, Interesting)
Also note, different schools teach different approaches. I watched a presentation on Microsoft's "Trusted Computing" a few years ago. The folks there from the legal profession were fascinated by the repercussions, and liked the idea of protecting their client's intellectual property. They were also courteous to the presenter, lauding the presenter's previous work and qualifications. The MIT person there (also an FSF member, as it turned out) rose up on his hind legs and went down the list of legally protected fair use applications that would be blocked, and how it would interfere with common uses that the presenter had utterly ignored.
It was funny to watch.
Re:You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:4, Insightful)
Much as I hate to be the fly in the Slashdot's idealistic ointment, that branding is very valuable. It is not simply a branding, it is an endorsement from one of the most respected institutions in the world: if you have an MIT degree, then the MIT admissions panel felt you are one of the brightest of your age group nationwide, because everybody knows that is all they will take. If you have a degree from Bog Standard College, then Bog Standard College's admissions panel endorsed that "they think you could just about get through the course", because everybody knows that is their criteria.
The best employers really go out of their way to try to attract talent from the top institutions. Cambridge University's Computer Lab recruitment fare has more companies with stands than it has students graduating each year. And of course companies often try to hire locally -- if you're after a role with a top technology firm, you'll quickly notice they are mostly clustered around the top universities, and usually have deep links within those universities.
And while you're there, both the best scientists and the best business people in the country will probably be giving free talks at the top institutions.
Re:You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:5, Interesting)
They must be, after all you've gone out of your way to post about 10 replies where you praise MIT (and the army up to some point) as the creme de la creme of the higher education you can get. I have this feeling that the way you're defending MIT, you are being a little too overzaelous.
At my previous workplace we had a rule "your degree and where it came from don't matter". I've seen a guy with a university degree in CS be outsmarted on a technical matter by someone who studied history but had a passion for what he was doing. We had a guy fresh out of high school who wanted to work a couple of years to earn some money before heading off to his higher education, and he was better at programming than some "educated" people I've had the "pleasure" to work with.
My point is that while many companies have a tendency to focus on a degree, a lot of companies don't. If you have a talent and you're willing to put that to good use, you'll be presented with enough opportunities. Yes, a degree is important, but 10 years from when you have obtained that degree your experience and achievements are much more important.
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Re:You're just paying for the brand name. (Score:5, Insightful)
My experience has been that the difference between top private U's and state school isn't necessarily in the facilities or the faculty (at least with respect to well-funded state schools), but the degree to which your fellow classmates catalyze the learning process.
Any school, including small community colleges, will have some exceptionally intelligent and talented people, but taking a class with an excellent prof and 2-3 other people who 'get it' is an entirely different experience than when the entire class instantly absorbs the primary principles and the lecturer is constantly fielding insightful questions that illuminate corner cases, the underlying theory, etc. Then, when you're chatting after class, you find that it just so happens that one of your classmates did a graduate-level thesis on related algorithms in his junior year of high school, and you learn even more over some Chick Fil A.
You will occasionally have that kind of experience anywhere, but at the top schools you can have them pretty much daily.
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From the way you talk though, it do fills me with a little regret that I went the public school route. Besides the unending projects, I enjoy being in academia with the opportunity to learn new
Might work better if... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's easy to get your Free software out there. It would probably look better if you had something you could show prospective sponsors, and this is where the versioning comes in. If you've got a horking great Subversion repository full of your code, with maybe a few checkins a day, then it shows the process by which you work. It's like showing your working on a maths problem - if you get the answer right but don't show your working, you won't get full marks. If you show your working and get the answer wrong, quite often you'll get fairly good marks anyway if the working is right but the mistake was a little arithmetical slip.
So in short, show them the code. And let us know if it gets you into college.
Don't be such a downer! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Don't be such a downer! (Score:4, Interesting)
I almost agree with some of what you said. MIT is a generic school compared to The School of Hard Knocks, depending on your goals. For me, Hard Knocks University worked out quite well because I never had a desire to be an employee. I most certainly was an employee for a number of years during that education. It taught me how to do things better and be a good employer.
I only speak for me, but the thought if being an employee my whole life is abhorrent and I say that having had some very good jobs in IT with no college education at all. I earned what I got by educating myself and working hard on the job. There are exceptions, but for the most part I think college is a circle jerk.
The point you make about the dedication and perseverance that employers are looking for... I think you're right. But I find it twisted and sick. I can assure you that building a business or three from scratch - for that matter, working your way into a Fortune 100 job with no degree - takes far more dedication and perseverance. It costs far less in terms of wasted time and money.
Ultimately, I'm motivated by a desire to be free. I'm living my dream with no classroom education beyond high school and I'm in my own classroom every day - on my terms and my schedule. Usually on my couch, but when I travel, I'm making money anywhere I have an internet connection.
I believe, in most cases, college is a sucker play. If you want to learn how to be a really good peon, it can certainly work for you. The valid exceptions are technical professions that require it. But the latter does not describe most college students. Most college students are there because they're willing to sell 40 years of their life and take orders for a reliable paycheck.
When I hire, I try really hard to not hold a college degree against anyone. It's a challenge. I spent too many years in corporate IT amongst those who graduated with honors from good schools with degrees in CS and still were coming to me multiple times a day for help because they didn't know how to do their jobs.
I'll hire a high school drop-out (or student) with a hunger to learn and an understanding of how to do it independently over a worthless diploma from a college every time. (And no, it's not because they're cheap. I pay very well and only hire the best.)
Get admitted, the money will be there (Score:2)
And no, aside from the army nobody's going to give you money to go to college on the condition that you work for them when you get out. That's just silly.
The more rational thing to do... (Score:2)
While in college, remember to take a basic history class and understand how
Loans? Grants? Scholarships? (Score:3, Informative)
I went to Cornell and managed to pay the entire bill myself. I've got a quite a bit of student debt, but I've also got a really good job that's allowing for me to pay off my bills very quickly. Go to a good school, you get good opportunities afterwards (contrary to popular belief, name recognition goes a long way). Fill out your FAFSA, use the power of Google to find scholarships and fight for 'em, and whatever the government and really nice people don't give you, pull out in private loans (Sallie Mae, etc...). Heck, interest rates are basically at rock bottom right now, so you won't get hosed. Having a loans also helps motivate you, trust me. You're less likely to goof off (still have fun, but not blow off work), plus you get fiscally responsible pretty quickly (a lot faster than most of your classmates).
Anyway, stepping off of my soapbox of "pay for yourself," as it looks like thats you're trying to do, I don't think many (if any) company will pay for your education right now this moment. After you're in college for a year or two, however, some of these opportunities crop up, but I've seen them more in the financial sector than in tech. Get an internship or two and it'll help you immensely financially and get a job after college. If you're as good as you say you are, you should be able to find one freshman year- go to the career fair with a good resume AFTER meeting with your career services center to get it brushed up, and practice some interview skills (some say it doesn't matter, and it may not, but it will most definitely help you stand out from the crowd). There is ONE program that I know of that is what you're looking for, but it ain't FOSS-- look up the "Stokes Educational Scholarship Program" for the NSA. They will pay tuition and books, and give you summer internships in return for 1.5x your stay in college (4 years undergrad, 6 years NSA).
Mighta, woulda, coulda (Score:4, Insightful)
Might? By the time I finished high school, I had released at least 3 GPL'd programs that were entirely my own work, a 3-clause BSDL'd one, a couple of scripts dedicated to the public domain, and a several patches to existing free software. Nobody sent me to an ivy-league school.
You're going to have to do better than "I might release a GPL'd app someday" if you want to convince the people here that you're the unique snowflake you claim to be. And remember: even if you're brilliant, why should anyone put you through school? What's the payoff for them?
Re:Mighta, woulda, coulda (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, I guess if you really need the ego stroking - you sound like a real genius man, like you must have been the best qualified high school grad of all time and I am sure that all the universities were begging you to sign up, and if they weren't, well it's the dumbest thing they ever did to pass up on talent like you.
Now that that's over with - do you actually have a useful answer to his question?
A Few Clarifications (Score:2, Informative)
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It's a god damn operating system, not a cult or a cure for cancer. You're not helping "the cause". You're working for a company which has the sole purpose of making as much of money for their shareholders as possible. There is nothing wrong with that, but you desperately need a reality check.
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Don't bother calling MIT before you're accepted because they won't give you the time of day. I don't blame them, since they only accept a tiny fraction of the people who apply.
Despite what so many other people here are saying, I think you should definitely apply to a top school, but please don't limit yourself to MIT! Grab a list of the top 10 s
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Note that MIT has just revised its financial aid policies, to allow for more financial aid and lower tuition costs for students whose families earn less money. So, ignore your mom and call them anyway. Even if you can't afford it, you should know what your target is if you're going to be approaching organizations and asking for scholarships.
And really, just apply anyway -- to a
Re:A Few Clarifications (Score:5, Insightful)
I know two or three people offhand who funded their entire education through scholarships they applied to outside of their educational institute's financial aid office. It's very doable.
4. I'm not saying that I haven't considered public schools; I simply much prefer a school that I'm not in the top 1% of math SAT scores. If that sounds arrogant I apologize, but I'm just tired of going to schools like my high school that don't have a *single* person (student or otherwise) who knows C.
Oh, please. Don't be a fucking douchebag if you can at all help it. "Wah, wah, I am so smart!" You will find people at any institution who will kick your ass up and down the road and know much, much, much more than you do about what you proclaim to be good at; you will find people who are far hotter shit than you are or ever will be. It doesn't matter where you go, this will be the case.
"Oh, no, nobody in my high school knows C! I am adrift in a sea of stupidity!" Grow up.
5. I want to go to MIT because I think that I can learn something about programming from other students and teachers (the computer programming class is taught with JavaScript and teachers certified by a one day course) for the first time in my life.
You can do that at any university. Hell, MIT's learning materials are given away for free. Do you want to learn, or do you want the little piece of paper?
7. Yes, I was about to call the MIT admissions office, but my mother brought up the argument "don't even try, we won't have the money for that", hence this ask slashdot article.
Your mother is a moron, and you shouldn't be listening to her when it comes to this.
8. I want to find scholarships from FOSS organizations because I want to support the community and working for a FOSS company would be a dream come true. I love Linux and free software, and would be proud to put some time into the cause.
"Work" is the exchange of your time for their money, and if they want you to fuck up a Holy Sacred GPL Project because it suits your purposes, you do it or you get fired. You need a cluestick to the head or need to learn about the real world. It's not a cause, it's an operating system and a style of releasing software.
9. I hate to respond to my own article, but I felt like I needed to clear up a few things.
Frankly, you just make yourself look like more of an ass. You're in plentiful, if not good, company, though--you sound like half the kids in my school's CS department.
Take out some loans (Score:3, Informative)
If the total remaining amount you and your parents are supposed to pay is still to high, no problem - that's just their initial offer. They will negotiate - the job of the financial aid office is to make it so that you can attend. Let them know how much your parents are willing to spend, and see what they can do for you. If you're lucky, they will find some grants and scholarships to cover more of the difference, and they will definitely offer more loans. Not crappy loans like a car loan or credit card - college loans often have no interest while you're in school, and very low interest rates after that.
And trust me, if you're going into software engineering, some loans are no big deal. You'll get a nice salary and pay them off in a few years, and it will all be worth it.
One thing, though - the financial offer you'll get will vary dramatically from school to school. Virtually all good schools have great financial aid programs that can negotiate with you - but they all value different things and have different rules. Your best bet is to apply and get accepted to a lot of great schools - MIT, Caltech, CMU, Harvard, Yale, UTexas, UIUC, Stanford, Berkeley, Harvey Mudd - and then pick one of the ones with the best financial offer for you.
Wow! (Score:4, Interesting)
Couple things (Score:2)
More importantly, some other programs that I'd recommend for a CS major would be
- CMU (gr
Go abroad (Score:2)
Comparison of name-brand vs. public schools (Score:2)
So although I can only offer my own experience, I worked in an office full of graduates from a top-ranked university and my perspecti
Financial aid is better at big name schools (Score:2, Informative)
MIT announcement: Tuition-free for 30% of students (Score:4, Informative)
Here is one significant quote from it:
Standard answer (Score:3, Funny)
I don't get it either. But then, I've never understood how the US education system works. I'm not all that convinced that it does.
DO NOT Let Lack of $ Get in the Way (Score:3, Insightful)
DO NOT let lack of money dissuade you from what you want to do. That breads resentment and bitterness. Do it, do it well, and the money will come.
I went to MIT. I hate it when people assume that you have to be rich to go there, or make comments like "my parents couldn't afford that." That isn't a reason to not even try. I'm not sure about the original poster's financial status (upper middle class can be a big range), but MIT recently announced it will be tuition free [mit.edu] for those families making $75000 or less.
And the name does make a difference. I got my first job due to it (poor match in the end, but that is another story). Many employers see it as a short cut to the type of person you are. You *will* get a good job if you went to another school, especially if you are good (goodness will always override name in the end), but as other posters have mentioned the fact that you are surrounded by smart and clever people kicks your own performance up a notch. Being able to see exactly what you are capable of and find and notice your limits is an amazing experience. I wouldn't trade my time at MIT for the world, despite 4 years of complaining about the workload, the pressure and the frosh.
MIT just announced: no tuition for $75k/yr fams (Score:4, Informative)
You may want to look into MIT again. They just announced a couple of weeks ago that students from families that earn less than $75k/yr. will not have to pay tuition. They've also changed the factors they look at to determine financial aid for other income levels:
Fin. Aid Boosted; No Tuition For Families Earning Under $75K [mit.edu]
MIT has also always had a policy of basically, "You get in, and we'll help you figure out how to afford it."
A couple more things:
Disclaimer: I graduated from MIT, and would not trade that experience for anything.
The greatest gift (Score:4, Insightful)
Go to MIT. Get loans. They'll have low interest rates. Pay them off as SLOWLY as you can. Having a degree from MIT on your resume will pay for your investment in 10 years or so. You'll get aid, you'll get loans, you'll get a JOB and you'll afford it just fine
Remember that high housing costs mean high labor costs -- which means the hourly you get for labor in Boston will be higher than you expect. Get skilled labor jobs. Avoid working on campus unless the job helps you academically (meaning in the lab of a person you're learning from). Never work for a faculty member who starts off pointing out that working for him or her will get you a great recommendation which will open doors for you. Such people are weasels, and will screw you.
Stop looking to your parents. Stop trying to figure out how some third party will pay for it. Go directly to the school and deal with them. They'll help a lot. The rest you'll either pay for immediately from your wages or loans, and it'll be FINE.
Sounds Like A Crock (Score:3, Insightful)
MIT, like all top-tier schools, including every school in the Ivy League, and many many more-accessible schools, offer need-blind admissions, which means they will find a way for you to be able to afford college, one way or another.
So, my suggestion is to go do what every other kid in America is doing, even those who aren't so lucky to be in an upper-middle-class family: get a job, borrow money, get thru school, then get another job and pay back the money. In fact, that makes me realize that taxpayers are the ones funding the low-cost government student loans, so we all already are giving you the scholarship that you are requesting.
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Secondly, to the question: MIT gives full financial aid, based on what they think your parents can afford to pay. Yeah, you might end up paying a bit more a year than a $10,000 a year state school once you get finaid from them, but then again maybe not, and for the education you'll get at MIT and the people you'll meet there, it will be worth it. I go to a school that costs more than MIT and my parents make less than 100k a year (well less), and I got through the first two years of school without loans. This brings up my second point to you: don't look at loans as a bad thing. Look at them as an investment in yourself. If you come out of MIT with an engineering degree, you can easily be making a high five or low six figures straight out of college. You'll pay off your loans in a year or two at that pace. Well worth it.
Personally, I'd suggest looking at not just MIT, too. I was a CS major for my first two years here at my school (oh fuck it, I go to Yale, just so you know, I don't know why we always beat around the bush here), and there is a great, theoretical program. However, I found that while I enjoy programming, computer science is something completely different from programming, and decided to change my major to Linguistics. It's wonderful the large range of possibilities a school like Yale or Stanford or Brown can give to you. Don't confine yourself to a technical school, especially if you already have a lot of technical skills.
Let's see. What other advice besides don't worry about money and try to broaden your horizons? Get an on-campus job, you'd be surprised how well some of them pay (I get $13.50 an hour to fix computers and sit at shifts doing homework and helping folks who need it if they ask), get loans, go to a school that gives good financial aid, and you'll graduate, get a great job, and not have to worry about the pittance in loans you have. Go abroad, go to lectures, take advantage of any alumni networks you can get on, especially if they're related to a group or club you are in, just take advantage of the resources your university offers you as much as you can. And even if you don't end up going to a top-tier school, all this will still hold true.
Best of luck. If you want to talk to me at all, feel free to PM me.
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
sure, money isn't EVERYTHING, but it's about 90% of it. when your all grown up and have a house and other responsibilites like a family, you'll learn you'd happily shovel shit for a living if it paid the right money.
and call me jaded, but even in my day critical thinking was dead in college.
i'd also like to point out that "you can easily be making a high five or low six figures straight out of college" is bullcrap and won't happen. you'll have to go into a graduate program after getting your engineering degree, where they will teach you how things are really done and pay you shit money for the pleasure.
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Informative)
Also, as far as anyone has ever told me and I've ever seen, grad school for engineering and ESPECIALLY for CS is completely worthless for getting a job, and is done almost only by those who wish to go into academia. Sure, 2 years of Business school might be required after 5 or so years in the work force in order to get a managerial position that really pays bank, but that's far in the future. Places like MS and Google and Yahoo! are hiring kids out of my school at 75k or more a year for software engineering jobs (there is obviously a variance, and some jobs get a lower salary).
Finally, I'm sorry critical thinking was dead at your college, but that is not the case here, and does not seem to be the case at many of the colleges my friends go to. Quite honestly, that seems to be one of the largest differences between some of the "better" schools and some of the lesser-known schools, which is just a sense I get from talking to my few high school friends who went to Ivy or equivalent schools and comparing our experiences to those who went elsewhere. It's not to say that they're not getting good educations, but that level of critical thinking, especially outside of classes, largely seems to be lacking, making some of them really unhappy.
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's funny. That's really funny. Google (who you mention below) has a minimum of a BS in computer science, but recommends a MS and a Ph.D. is a big plus. I would wager that you really don't know what you're talking about here.
Sure, 2 years of Business school might be required after 5 or so years in the work force in order to get a managerial position that really pays bank, but that's far in the future. Places like MS and Google and Yahoo! are hiring kids out of my school at 75k or more a year for software engineering jobs (there is obviously a variance, and some jobs get a lower salary).
Try "pretty much all jobs have a lower salary." Expecting 75K+ straight out of college is ludicrous unless you have some sort of proven track record that shows you aren't just another college graduate. For someone leaving school with a master's, I'd buy 75K+ (but that'd still be a huge stretch). Same for a Ph.D. Not some kid with a bachelor's.
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But 75K is the right ballpark for new bachelor's degree grads, fresh out of school, at MS or Google. That's base pay, on top of which you have signing bonus cash and/or stock, and generous cash/stock bonus plan.
I know *for sure* because I got offers from both. I like to think I've proven myself, and I contest that it was not easy (have you heard tales of their interv
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I agree that it's rare, and that being able to get high 5 / low 6 figures easily is ludicrous, and I'd not call 75K "high 5 / low 6 figures". But 75K is the right ballpark for new bachelor's degree grads, fresh out of school, at MS or Google.
Well.... no shit Sherlock- he'd already said as much! "Expecting 75K+ straight out of college is ludicrous unless you have some sort of proven track record that shows you aren't just another college graduate."
As you yourself imply, that's *exactly* what you'd need to get into Google or Yahoo(!)
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Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:4, Interesting)
My own story agrees with you here. Nobody pays huge money for the unproven person, unless university, in that employer's mind, is proof enough. That's hard to find, though.
When I started working, I started off at $38k as a programmer trainee. Within 6 months I was promoted and got a $5k increase. Since then, I've made 30-60% jumps every time I changed jobs. Now that I'm toward the top of the programmer pay scale, I've gone into management because there's a higher ceiling. The key is to keep moving, learning new things, and don't get too stuck to any one thing because it'll limit you.
The point is that people shouldn't expect to get top-of-the-market rates right out of school. There's a reason those rates are top of the market, and they're reserved for the best in the field -- which most college kids aren't. What you can expect is that, if you work hard, you'll move up pretty quickly.
A side note regarding my comment about about not getting stuck on any one thing. There will be people here who say they program for the love of it, not for the money, and that money isn't everything. Great. Fine. There's no problem with that, if those are your priorities. Some people do it for the money, and that's what I'm talking about. I go to work for the money, and no matter what I do there, I want the most money possible for the time I spend there. If that means I'm in meetings all day and don't write a single line of code, that's ok. I fulfill my love of programming and try to stay sharp by working on little open source apps at home and some side consulting. It's not an either-or proposition.
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Perhaps I am just a "college kid". However, the majority of my friends are actually out of college, many of them married with children, so I feel that I have at least a little bit of perspective on this. I know plenty of them who got 6 figures or a high 5 figures out of college, even 5 years ago.
The fact that you know their salaries should tell you something about the quality of your friends.
Places like MS and Google and Yahoo! are hiring kids out of my school at 75k or more a year for software engineering jobs (there is obviously a variance, and some jobs get a lower salary).
The variance is going to depend on the proven abilities. In hiring, I evaluate on what you've done in your own time, not what you've studied. A 4-year college student with no significant experience is not worth $75k/year -- no matter the university.
Finally, I'm sorry critical thinking was dead at your college, but that is not the case here, and does not seem to be the case at many of the colleges my friends go to. Quite honestly, that seems to be one of the largest differences between some of the "better" schools and some of the lesser-known schools, which is just a sense I get from talking to my few high school friends who went to Ivy or equivalent schools and comparing our experiences to those who went elsewhere.
If you think you need a $40k/year education to engage in critical thinking, you're not engaging in anything of the sort.
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's because he's bought into the PHB mindset - he'll outsource all that "critical thinking stuff".
One thing nobody's mentioned yet is that people with a BS in CS are FUBAR'd if they're just coming onto the job market in a declining economy. Between outsourcing, contracting, and plain old cutbacks/layoffs, doesn't matter what "name" university you went to ... but the debt associated with that "name" university makes your monthly nut that much harder to crack.
It may also make you less, not more, employable, since employers will figure that you'll either want more $$$ to start with, or will quickly jump ship for more $$$ once you have a year's "real world experience" under your belt. Both of these are negatives, which is why you see people with a couple of decades experience "dumbing down" their resumes when they get tired of what they're doing and want to change their speciation.
C/S Degree Enormously Beneficial (Score:2)
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Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:4, Informative)
Also, as far as anyone has ever told me and I've ever seen, grad school for engineering and ESPECIALLY for CS is completely worthless for getting a job, and is done almost only by those who wish to go into academia.
As someone who works for a large tech company, let me just say that you've been very misled. The differences aren't immediately obvious, but you need to think a little bit beyond starting salary.
Promotion ceiling. You may start off with a salary that's only 10-15k below someone with an MS, but I have encountered a large number of people who have gone back to school because they can't get promoted without a better degree. In fact, I can't think of anyone I know that's over the age of 35 and doesn't have at least an MS. A large number went back to school after they had kids and continually grumbled about how hard it was with a family.
Job types. Those with BS's are much more likely to find themselves in a low-level position - implementation, support, bug fixing. People with graduate degrees are more likely to be in the design and project lead positions. Not only is this a factor in the promotion issue I already raised, but who do you think is easier to outsource? When times are tough, who are they going to lay off?
Just to emphasize the point, I was planning on stopping with my BS when the .com bust happened, and ended up going back to grad school at a Big 10 university. Applications for graduate schools in 2002 and 2003 were extremely high. High enough that schools were caught off guard when people who they expected to get in to MIT, CMU, Berkeley, etc ended up accepting their offers. Enough accepted that I heard many stories of schools that were overcommitted for financial aid. Unfortunately, I only have one data point for the mixture that were returning students, but around 20-25% of our class were people who had been in successful IT jobs and had gone back to grad school because they had trouble finding jobs. It led to an interesting mix of professional and academic experience.
Now, does this mean that you can't be successful with just a BS? No. Heck, I knew a kid out of high school that was pulling in over 100k managing IT for some small company during the .dot boom. But, he eventually went back to school too.
My point though is that if you want better job security, you want more freedom of action and responsibility, and a better likelihood of higher pay in the long run, the 24 credit hours for the MS is well worth it.
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok
If you're smart, you're smart and don't need college full time. If you're not, the college degree gets you past the HR screener to someone that can figure out whether or you have some skills they might be interested in.
I'm also fucking tired of college kids trying to justify their waste of money by saying 'we are well rounded' or 'we learned critical thinking'. No one gives a crap about that. Can you write code with any degree of skill?? That's all I care about.
To all the CS majors out there, I need someone that can take an 8 year old program that no one has touched in years and the original author is gone, find all the missing header files, get it compiled and fixed. Today. Not next week, today. You don't get to work on the fun stuff the day you start working. Get over it. I need someone with debugging skills and the humbleness to listen when I tell them 'you really don't want to code it that way' and present a more maintainable and stable alternative. Not some crap your college professor thinks works. I'll give you an opportunity to explain why you want to do it, but the end result is I have 20 other developers and I need all the programs to be maintainable, not some creative crap.
To all the high school kids out there
All that said
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Interesting)
First of all, school up to the PhD is a pyramid scheme (currently failing):
"The Big Crunch" by David Goodstein (Vice Provost CalTech)
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html [caltech.edu]
The end result is "disciplined minds" who will not step out of line politically:
http://disciplined-minds.com/ [disciplined-minds.com]
Or journalistically:
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20051207.htm [chomsky.info]
"By the time you've gone through, you know, Oxford and Cambridge and here you could say Harvard and Princeton and so on, and even less fancy places, you have instilled into you the understanding that there are certain things that just wouldn't do to say, and that's what a good deal of education is. So the people who come out of it - and there are many filters, if people go off and try to be too critical there are many ways of discouraging them or eliminating them one way or the other. Some get through, it's not a uniform story.
The reason schooling exists in its current form is to teach these seven lessons:
"The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher" by John Taylor Gatto - 1991 New York State Teacher of the Year
http://hometown.aol.com/tma68/7lesson.htm [aol.com]
in order to prepare most people for a life of servitude to the military or factories (and to not be very thoughtful about consumption or politics either).
"The Prussian Connection" -- Gatto
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/7a.htm [johntaylorgatto.com]
And from:
"A conversation with historian and author James Loewen. Sort of."
http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/archives/18/loewen.html [stayfreemagazine.org]
"We like to believe schooling is a good thing. But when it comes to understanding any problem with historical roots, we might expect that the more traditional schooling in history that Americans have, the less they will understand it. Students who have taken math courses are better at math. The same is true for English, foreign languages, and almost every other subject. But in history, stupidity is the result of more, not less, schooling."
Still, studies have shown that the only people who really get economic value out of an Ivy League degree or equivalent are those from lower middle class backgrounds. All other things being equal, for most other people it's not worth the money as an investment. See the book "Class" for some other details:
http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253 [amazon.com]
Otherwise, consider:
"College is a Waste of Time and Money" (1975)
http://www.grossmont.edu/bertdill/docs/CollegeWaste.pdf [grossmont.edu]
"College, then, may be a good place for those few young people who are really drawn to academic work, who would rather read than eat, but it has become too expensive, in money, time, and intellectual effort to serve as a holding pen for large numbers of our young. We ought to make it possible for those reluctant, unhappy students to find alternative ways of growing up, and more realistic preparation for the years ahead."
And consider those years ahead following Moore's Law will include computers 10000X faster than what we have now for the same price in 20 or so years.
http://www.transhumanis [transhumanist.com]
Re:trust me don't do it. (Score:5, Informative)
Beyond that, there is something to be said for a formal education. I was "self taught" in high school also, and thought that I would be able to handle any problem. I couldn't have been more wrong, and in my senior year of high school, when I began taking real CS courses, I learned things that I would never have grasped without a teacher. The sort of things I am studying now can't be "self taught," because in at least one case I am learning it directly from the researcher who made the discovery. Overall, a formal education not only provided me with new ways of thinking about my majors and related fields, but it also broadened my ability to solve problems, both in terms of scope and approach.
Going directly into trade after high school is a waste of time and of talent. Is college expensive? Unfortunately, yes. Is it worth the expense? Absolutely.
interesting point on picking schools (Score:2, Insightful)
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Obviously there are a ton of things to look at when choosing a University or other higher education Institution but this is one of the things that should be done. It's a shame
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Not that it helps you but I think the government should foot the bill for all education needed to prepare people for today's
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Seriously, what's with the people reading this who feel the need to point out how much harder it was for them and that the person asking the question is just being a whiner for wanting to go to M.I.T.? I'
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It's like asking for handouts at the soup kitchen while decked out in a lot of expensive jewelry.
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Education is everything, it's the very fabric of our species. From living in caves to sending a probe outside of our solar system, education is what makes us who we are. I will agree that kids tend to go to university for the wrong reasons, whether it's for money, because they're expected to, or they do it t
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Lots of kinds of education you simply can't get at uni.
But, yeah, if he's motivated to go to school now, best to do it now and get it over with. And, as someone else said, he shouldn't worry about the money when he applies. If he's good enough to get the admission, he should go talk to the profs, counselors, and the financial aid department. Paths may open up, especially if his project is any good. MIT is definitely o
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Don't use his words anymore. Maybe if you spent a little less time ripping on education you might've found some words of your own to use.
Re:TAG: youarenotanuniquesnowflake (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't you just answer his question instead of spouting off about how much better your way of doing things is? What, you don't have an answer to his question because instead of going to a good school you fucked around with a "Berufsmatur" instead? Well then shut the fuck up.
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[Quick info for outsiders about the western european education system: Nine year mandatory school (this is roughly equivalent to everything up to an U.S. high school). Then either Matura/Abitur (three years; leads up to university for another some three years to a bachelor's degree) or an apprenticeship. In the latter, you'll spend three to four years working for a company an
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In a sense that's what I was thinking when I read the topic (besides the initial "well at least you have any college fund, work for the remainder like the rest of us you lazy bastard" flash).
One of the most interesting trends I've noticed while attending a state school is how many graduate students come from places such as MIT, the Ivys, etc. and how many of our undergraduate students end up doing graduate work at MIT or the Ivys. It seems that after being beaten down by an excessively hard undergrad progr
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So go there for grad school. They generally will pay you to go in most disciplines. But you have to be topper of your class with a great record and
Re:Skillset... (Score:5, Funny)
O how sweet.