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Salasaga Fills Flash Creation Hole for Linux

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 6 years ago | from the flash-still-evil dept.

Software 112

Linux.com's Bruce Byfield is reporting that Salasaga, the renamed Flame Project, is attempting to fill the functionality gap of Flash creation for Linux in addition to being a cross-platform tool. While it still lacks the spit-shine of more mature apps, it is going a long way to filling yet another hole in Linux software. "Opening Salasaga, you could easily think you are in a slide show program. Individual slides display on the left, and the current slide appears on the bottom right. On the top right is information about the layers on the current side. Menus are logically laid out across the top of the editing window. From the editing menu, you can set the defaults for new projects, including the default display size of finished projects, the preview width, and the default background color. After adjusting these settings, you proceed logically from the right as you develop a project, progressing from Screenshots for importation through Slide and Layer to Export. This progression is so logical that few viewers should have trouble teaching themselves the basics of the software and producing a test project in less than 20 minutes -- and saving it in native .flame format or exporting it to Flash or SVG formats."

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Link and Summary (5, Informative)

26199 (577806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850480)

On the off-chance someone was going to RTFA, here is the FA [linux.com] , since it doesn't seem to have made it into the story.

The following line probably tells most people what they want to know:

Also missing are features that those familiar with Flash Professional or Adobe Captivate might expect, such as drawing tools, a scripting language, and support for sound and video.

So what does it do? Well, slideshows. Handy, but not hugely exciting.

Re:Link and Summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850552)

So basically it's nothing like Flash at all then?

Over excited bandwagon jumping hype from Linux.com? Never!

Re:Link and Summary (4, Insightful)

26199 (577806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850620)

To be fair, the hype comes from Slashdot, the linux.com article is quite restrained...

Re:Link and Summary (1)

oliderid (710055) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855230)

So basically it's nothing like Flash at all then?

You are right.
Official web site [salasaga.org] .
They state that salasaga is a "Integrated Development Environment for producing eLearning". SWF is just an output media.

For those interested in Open source Flash tool. I'm currently testing FlashDevelop (IDE for Actionscript). Looks quite nice and useful
the web site (well an "official forum") [flashdevelop.org] (Windows compatible only AFAIK)
More info on here [osflash.org]

 

Re:Link and Summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850560)

most informational post ever on slashdot.

can it be any more succinct?!

Re:Link and Summary (5, Insightful)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850622)

If the only aim was to generate swf files, this was already possible using vnc2swf. If the aim was to produce a replacement for Flash, then it seems to have failed.

Re:Link and Summary (2, Insightful)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850694)

Definitely. I mean it's a cool looking app, but the "slides -> layers -> export" model.. i'm sorry, it just sounds like a terrible idea. Maybe some flash presentations could be done slide-by-slide but most can't, and without actionscripting it's pretty much limited to being nifty but useless.

Re:Link and Summary (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852832)

Maybe some flash presentations could be done slide-by-slide but most can't
But it might be interesting to see what some creative artists can do with it. Like many, I've found Flash to be a common irritant on the Web, but I've seen some wonderful work done with it, and I think it's got some value as an artistic medium.

Re:Link and Summary (2, Interesting)

h4rm0ny (722443) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855018)


I'm sure some people can do some nice stuff with this, but what I'd really like to see is decent animated SVG in an open format. Can you imagine what Inkscape [inkscape.org] would be like with support for animation? Incredible - that's what. If some rich company (Google, Sun) wants to knock FLASH flying and bring about an open standard, that would be the short route to go.

Re:Link and Summary (2, Informative)

anomalous cohort (704239) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850830)

Salasaga seems to be about authoring slide shows in SWF format. In which case, it will need to do a better job than the Export function of the Open Office Impress application.

Re:Link and Summary (0, Troll)

hauntingthunder (985246) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854978)

its failed good

I have seen far to many sites done in flash that totaly fail - why would you want to polute linux with the pile of crap that Flash is.

Track Jumping (5, Funny)

mrbluze (1034940) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850634)

being a cross-platform tool
That's what we used to call the people who jumped tracks instead of taking the overpass at the train station.

Re:Link and Summary (4, Informative)

someone300 (891284) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850688)

Seems that Flex [wikipedia.org] provides a more complete Flash creation tool than this software. What's more, Adobe are supporting it under Linux, and you can pick up an alpha version of Flex Builder based on Eclipse already.

To me, it seems that this software would be more suited to a plugin for OpenOffice.org Impress.

Re:Link and Summary (3, Informative)

chromatic (9471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851170)

Adobe are supporting [Flex] under Linux...

If by supporting you mean "have thrown an alpha or two over the wall for 32-bit x86 processors back in December", then yes, Adobe supports Linux with Flex.

Re:Link and Summary (2, Interesting)

mjbkinx (800231) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854812)

If by supporting you mean "have thrown an alpha or two over the wall for 32-bit x86 processors back in December", then yes, Adobe supports Linux with Flex.

Personally, I'm very happy about them releasing alphas. It's already quite usable.
Also, there's another commercial IDE [powerflasher.com] , the SDK [adobe.com] itself is under the MPL, and there are alternative (non-Adobe) tools [swfmill.org] as well.
Anyway, I highly recommend haXe [haxe.org] , it's a fine language that you can also use to generate JavaScript, with a great type system.

Re:Link and Summary (3, Informative)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851176)

Trying to do OSS development on the Flash platform is kind of a nightmare in terms of licensing.

Re Flex, check out the EULA [adobe.com] , e.g., "No Modifications, No Reverse Engineering." The swf spec [adobe.com] says "a. You may not use the Specification in any way to create or develop a runtime, client, player, executable or other program that reads or renders SWF files." If you look at the list of codecs that are supported for Flash, or that may be supported in the near future, it's a mixture of totally proprietary codecs and others that are not quite as proprietary, but are not totally free and open either: mp3, a modified version of h.263, AAC audio, H.264 video, Nelly Moser. The EULA for the player [adobe.com] says you can't modify it or reverse-engineer it, and can't run it on a portable device. As of a year ago, there were also a lot of compatibility and licensing issues with the Version 2 Components.

If you want to do totally OSS development on the flash platform, you can also do it using mtasc, haxe, and gnash. However, you then have to accept that mtasc supports an old version of actionscript, and haxe isn't the same language. I.e., you can't buy a flash book and expect to get the examples working.

Re:Link and Summary (2, Insightful)

X0563511 (793323) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851424)

People need to learn that anything intending to be a web standard should NOT be proprietary.

Imagine if javascript, PHP, or html was a proprietary binary blob? You see the issue I'm sure...

Re:Link and Summary (1)

Richard Fairhurst (900015) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856772)

Or you can use Ming [libming.org] , which is what I do all my Flash development work with - mostly the Flash editor for OpenStreetMap [openstreetmap.org] . Ming is actually the underlying library for Salasaga, and if you're at all familiar with scripting languages, you may well prefer direct access to the library rather than working via a GUI.

It's an even older version of Actionscript - AS1 vs mtasc's AS2 or commercial Flash's AS3 - but AS1 and AS2 have the same functionality, and personally (much to the exasperation of my co-devs ;) ) I prefer the old-fashioned AS1 grammar. Unlike mtasc, which is just an Actionscript compiler, Ming also provides language wrappers (Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby...) for Flash drawing primitives. Ming works fine on Linux, OS X (which I use), even Windows. There are plenty of examples available, and the devs are really helpful.

Re:Link and Summary (2, Informative)

markdavis (642305) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852680)

OpenOffice already has the ability to export Impress presentations in Flash :)

Re:Link and Summary (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852850)

OpenOffice already has the ability to export Impress presentations in Flash :)


Is that so? Damn, I should have read the manual.

markdavis, your comment alone was worth my visit to Slashdot today.

What about a player? (5, Informative)

Epistax (544591) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850822)

Here I am in amd64... can I have an integrated flash player that WORKS please? Gnash is utter crap (arg please don't say contribute, I haven't the time to do anything but work and flame on slashdot). I don't want to make a chroot 32 environment / install every 32 bit library in existence...

Does anyone in my situation have a suggestion? I've also tried broken firefox add-ons, including: Magic's Video - Downloader, Media Pirate - The Video Downloader, and Video Download. I can watch about 1/3 of youtube videos. 1/3 don't work at all, and 1/3 only show the first frame. I haven't seen one interactive flash that works. Some flash completely freezes up firefox. Maybe I'd have luck with a different browser :P

Re:What about a player? (2, Funny)

cortana (588495) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851022)

Install the i386 port of your distro.

Re:What about a player? (1)

darthdavid (835069) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851040)

I'm in the same boat. Somehow the non-free flash plugin for Ubuntu magically started working (hacked to ignore the 32 bit only restrictions? I'm too lazy to find out). It randomly crashes, more so the more complex whatever it's trying to load is, but usually works again after restarting firefox. Atleast shit works right when it doesn't decide to choke and die (gnash I'm looking at you...).

Re:What about a player? (1)

oatworm (969674) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851194)

Sounds like the Flash plugin that runs under the 32 bit version of Ubuntu. :-)

Re:What about a player? (1)

Undead NDR (1252916) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854772)

On an i386 system, I recommend installing the old 9.0-r48 version of the Flash plugin. It's decently stable, which is more than can be said for the latest releases.

On a 64-bit system IIRC there is a wrapper for using 32-bit plugins.

Re:What about a player? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22851096)

i am in amd64 too, in your same situation, I think adobe will never release the 64 bit plugin, so just ignore content in this closed, propietary and non-portable technology.

Re:What about a player? (1)

DMUTPeregrine (612791) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854350)

download flash. extract the .so file from the tarball.

sudo apt-get install nspluginwrapper
sudo nspluginwrapper -i FILENAME.so
It worked for me, I did it earlier today. Youtube seems to work, no firefox crashes yet. Ubuntu 7.10, Firefox 2.0.0.12, about:plugins should display the following once it is installed:

File name: npwrapper.libflashplayer.so
Shockwave Flash 9.0 r115

Re:What about a player? (1)

Facetious (710885) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851132)

I don't know what distro you use, but I was like you: no acceptable flash player for AMD64. I use Ubuntu, and following an upgrade to Gutsy, installed flashplayer (or whatever it's called) via synaptic, and it handled all the nspluginwrapper stuff automatically. I was quite impressed. Of course I found the need shortly thereafter to install flashblock (or whatever it's called) to tone down certain sites.

Re:What about a player? (2, Informative)

26199 (577806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851150)

No idea, but here's one tip: mplayer will play the videos.

Visit the youtube page with a broken flash implementation and it may still download the file to your browser's cache. (It does in opera). Drop to command line, launch mplayer ... yeah, okay, it sucks. But there ya go.

Re:What about a player? (1)

sowth (748135) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854808)

I second mplayer. All the flash video I've thrown at it plays well, though I admit I haven't tried a huge amount.

I'm certain there is a firefox plugin for mplayer. I've seen mentioned. I don't use it because...well I am on dialup and I think video in web pages is evil!

Re:What about a player? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22857166)

I second mplayer. All the flash video I've thrown at it plays well, though I admit I haven't tried a huge amount.

I *have* tried a huge amount and so far mplayer plays 99%, but vlc plays 100%

Re:What about a player? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22851164)

Use nspluginwrapper!

Re:What about a player? (4, Insightful)

Device666 (901563) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851522)

Epistax: "Can I have an integrated flash player that WORKS please? [...] arg please don't say contribute, I haven't the time to do anything but work and flame on slashdot"

If you don't have the time to contribute, how important is that integrated flash player for you? Contribution doesn't neccesary mean it will cost you time, contributing money (even a small sum) can be a way too. Or you could send Adobe a polite email, asking them to add support for your platform. Adobe is increasingly paying more attention to linux. A friendly reminder of lots of people helps


Epistax: "Gnash is utter crap"

There are people on projects like Gnash, GPLFlash player, etc who tried or still trying to solve your problem. It's not easy to build an open source flash player. It takes a lot of effort from people with very busy lifes who make the time to contribute code. If all open source developers had your attitude, we all wouldn't even have something like a amd64 open source distribution. So please don't say open source x or y is utter crap, but you don't have time to contribute.

Re:What about a player? (3, Informative)

Epistax (544591) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852230)

Your comments are well taken, but..

If all open source developers had your attitude, we all wouldn't even have something like a amd64 open source distribution.

I'm not an open source developer, so that's not a fair comparison. I actually did try to help out in a few before but found the politics to be distasteful. My comment about gnash wasn't fair. Gnash is the best thing I've found for amd64. However, it doesn't deserve the pedestal that I've seen people put it on.

Again, my apologies to any gnash developers. It's just not usable yet.

Re:What about a player? (2, Informative)

niteice (793961) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852004)

Use nspluginwrapper [beauchesne.info] . It takes a little effort to set up but runs Flash and a few other proprietary (32-bit-only) plugins with ease.

Re:What about a player? (1, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852134)

I have a suggestion, quit using flash. The internet is much better without it.

Re:What about a player? (1)

AnyoneEB (574727) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852698)

Unfortunately, flash has become the de facto standard for posting movies on the internet -- and rarely does one see a clear link to the video itself to simply load into mplayer. The grandparent talked about various hacks for downloading the video, which is what I often use when visiting YouTube, but they only work sometimes. So, there is no easy way to get out of using a flash player. And, no, "Don't watch videos on the internet." is not a sane workaround.

Re:What about a player? (1)

dookiesan (600840) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854642)

I've seen some funny animated videos using flash. Small file size and very sharp picture. Half of the annoying pop up "close here [x]" ads I see are javascript now. If the web were in flash we would have pixel level precision in how pages appear. I think any designer would love Flash over html. No work-arounds for different browsers.

Re:What about a player? (3, Informative)

Hatta (162192) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856230)

Restraining the whims of designers is exactly why the internet is so much better without flash. HTML and CSS are plenty to get your message across to people in an organized and easy to read format. The internet is even better without javascript too.

Re:What about a player? (1)

iammisc (946727) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852362)

Have you tried using nspluginwrapper? It works perfectly for me. I can watch almost every flash video except those that check for windows or something stupid like that.

Re:What about a player? (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852854)

Here I am in amd64... can I have an integrated flash player that WORKS please?
Geez, and people in hell want ice water. I mean, some people are just never satisfied.

Re:What about a player? (1)

Golthur (754920) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852956)

I use nspluginwrapper [beauchesne.info] and the 32-bit Flash plugin, it works fairly well, although occasionally Flash "goes away" (blank window with no content) and you need to reload the browser.

That being said, it's certainly better than most of the other alternatives.

Re:What about a player? (1)

Mad Merlin (837387) | more than 6 years ago | (#22853156)

Like any sensible person, I don't install Flash. As for Youtube, youtube-dl [arrakis.es] works quite well.

Re:What about a player? (1)

Linegod (9952) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854012)

Use nspluginwrapper. Flash 9 works flawlessly here on Mandriva 2008.0 x86-64.

Re:What about a player? (1)

tbf (462972) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854880)

other alternative: swfdec. it seems to make good progress recently.

Re:What about a player? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22855498)

I hate to say it, but I'm on an amd64 system, and flash works pretty well for me, including youtube. I'm using the 32-bit version of flash player, but I'm using nspluginwrapper [beauchesne.info] with it to allow it to work with a 64 bit version of firefox...

Re:What about a player? (1)

PuercoPop (1007467) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856646)

I'm with you on gnash is crap. With the 32-bit wrapper I can see all youtube videos. It crashes once in while (like 1 time in a month) but it solves the problem about flash in amd64 linux

Re:Link and Summary (2, Informative)

jambarama (784670) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851064)

So what does it do? Well, slideshows. Handy, but not hugely exciting

Not only that, OpenOffice can already export slideshows into .swf files. When .swf support was first added I thought it was so neat I went and created a short animation - flipbook style. As it turns out, OO.org requires you to click, to advance to the next slide - which is the only added feature of salasaga AFAICT.

From the project homepage

An Integrated Development Environment for producing eLearning. Imagine a free, easy to use GUI authoring environment that helps you create visually impressive and actually useful learning material. The short term goal for this project is to provide such an environment, and we're well on the way to a first release for doing that.
To me, this seems to suggest this is designed as an educational tool, not a linux flash replacement. But it fails to show (at least to me) why it is any better than a traditional powerpoint presentation, and what it does that is so special. The homepage also claims Flash has at least one serious design limitation (from my POV) making it nearly useless for comprehensive eLearning but never discloses _what_ that serious limitation is, or how salasaga addresses it (other than making vague future claim about ajax).

URL (2, Insightful)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850482)

Where the fuck is the URL?

Re:URL (0, Troll)

RageTroll 9000 (1261452) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850640)

You don't deserve a link you stupid fuck. Quit your fucking bitching and do something productive before I slap you in the mouth.

Re:URL (2, Informative)

jambarama (784670) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850680)

This [salasaga.org] probably should've made the post.

The link? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850488)

The link is a lie.

can't comment.. (5, Funny)

rucs_hack (784150) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850496)

After all if I did, someone would only mark it as native .flame bait

Here is the truth... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850548)

Althouth I really like Linux and the free software, I think that we all have to accept the crushing truth.

In these times it really doesn't matter if is launched KDE 35.0 or Gnome Vista, because while both environments (and others with less weight as IceWM) were worrying in confusing the user with a completely different aspect, Microsoft was consolidating his position as leader in the field of the operating systems of office, first with the operating system Windows XP (that have approximately 90% of the client operating system market) and with its advanced successor, the recently Windows Vista, that offers a new form to interact with its PC. Is faster, friendlier, and more secure.

The reality is that Linux has little to offer to the inexperienced user. The same novice that is seen disconcerted by the impossibility to do a simple one copy-paste between QT and GTK applications. Go out and ask to the people how they install a program that does NOT have packages for its distribucción (because each one has its own packege system, completely incompatible with the others and that requires the use of complicated commands). Still the packages of the same format as RPM, they cannot be installed equally in Mandriva or Suse.

Then what we suggest to this user (that is just beginning in the Unix Word) is that he need to download the source code, go to the console, decompress it and compile it. How many they managed to do this? One of each a million, I have to say. We persist in THAT is the normal thing. ..nothing more further from the reality.

Explain him why in his Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Fedora cannot see many web pages: he must download the Flash and the Java plugin, in order then to install them with complicated commands. Also make him know that he won't be able to listen its MP3, WMA and WMV files. Tell to the flaming buyer of a new AMD64 how he can play flash games.A shit.

And the gamers? Obviously they'll return to windows, because even God can't use the hardware acceleration of the most modern graphics cards (besides, the drivers don't come in the distributions. ..becuase of the fucking freedom) and that games...just a few ones. By each Linux videogame we have 500 that run on Windows. And the few ones that run on Linux...Oh! Surprise!...Just Windows binaries on the CD, and you have to download the Linux version from a website. Finally the user return to the best option, the OS most used on home (all we know what OS is).

The proof of the free software failure is seen also in the professional world, either in areas like electronic design (doesn't exist anything similar to Protel), architecture (the standard CAD -all we know wich one-only works on Windows), web design (something similar to Dreamweaver? Don't mention something like NVU, that not only is full of bugs, but also just have the 5% of the Dreamweaver features. Neither Bluefish, Quanta or similars...no one would face a complex project with such a primitive tools). DTP? Scribus is a good try (very immature) but Quark or InDesign are far batter. Flash content creation (A standard, and a flash player installed in the 99% of PCs)? It cannot be done on Linux.

In the software development industry there's not a single decent RAD tool. Gambas seems to promise but for now is shit, Eclipse is a RAM eater (thanks Java) that only can be used with 2GB RAM, Kylix promised give the potential of Delphi to Linux, but it was discontinued because the developers hate to pay for licenses and they prefer to use a primitive tool, like KDevelop. And now that we talk about Borland tools, is not rare that programming gurus like Ian Marteens abandoned Delphi and C++ Builder and now prefer the most powerful system for software development: Microsoft Visual Studio.NET.

A computer game developer would never develop free (as in free spech) games, because they have to eat and there's not a business model compatible with free software. The Linux users don't want free (as in free spech) games, they just want commercial quality without pay a single buck.

Accounting software? In Linux? There's not software in this area. The businessman wants to have something standard, something friendly, something mature. He doesn't want to be fighting with a console, compiling sources for in the end (if he finally get it compile) obtain a half-finished application.

If Linux is free (in both senses)...Why the high computers-makers don't preinstall it (just a 1% make that)? Or at least dual-boot? Others, in other hand, opt for FreeDOS.

The PC Battle is loss...because it never exist. Linux with it's chaotic development (instead of boost existing applications or create new ones to supply the lacks, we have thousand clones of each one but without finish or that directly just make us laugh) just has dug it's own tomb. The user don't want a degree in Computer Science: He wants to insert the Game CD, make a few clicks and have all installed and running. He doesn't want headaches. He wants visit XXX sites and watch the video correctly. He wants to install his webcam without recompiling the kernel.

Keep defending the console. Keep defending LaTeX as if it was something that a secretary or a lawyer have to use with the same simplicity of Microsoft Office. Keep defending Vi as the best tool for software developmnet a web site design.Keep believing that new users need to get close to Debian or Gentoo, taking days to configure a USB modem. Keep insulting distributions like Ubuntu or SuSE because are trying to be friendly. Keep just like this and in the end there will be just three frikis using Linux, while the rest of the world will be using what is already mature and functional: Windows.

And You? Where do you want to go today?

Thanks for you attention.

Re:Here is the truth... (-1, Offtopic)

harshipper (1226826) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850672)

I hate that this comment has been modded down because it shows me that some Linux supporters are just as bad with critique as Windows users. Sure, the comment is a bit harsh, but it isn't off the mark. Linux isn't user friendly. I had to have a friend to install it on my computer because it was too much effort to do it myself (I do not want to spend several hours just because I like an OS). Today, I installed Ubuntu on a friend's computer. The install was all nice and easy (only because the computer didn't have Windows on it) but from there, I needed the help of a person who's basically studying IT. If I hadn't had the help? I probably wouldn't have Ubuntu on my computer nor would it be on my friend's. And what use is an OS that a regular user can't install without incredible amounts of hassle?

Re:Here is the truth... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850712)

I hate that this comment has been modded down because it shows me that some Linux supporters are just as bad with critique as Windows users. Sure, the comment is a bit harsh, but it isn't off the mark.

It's down, because it's off topic.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

harshipper (1226826) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850772)

They're a bit over the arch, but the point is the same as in the first comment of the thread. The program [linux] does something at least, but isn't nearly as good as it should/could be.

Re:Here is the truth... (0, Offtopic)

aaron.axvig (1238422) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850740)

Ever try to install Windows alongside an existing OS? Not easy, if it's even possible. But yes, I also hate that the OP's comment was modded down.

The way I see it, it's good that we have a mostly homogeneous OS market. Makes it easy for a lot of people. And right now we have just enough competition from OSX to keep Windows under some pressure. And there is just enough from Linux on the server side to push out good server products from Microsoft. I see no need for desktop linux.

Re:Here is the truth... (0, Troll)

harshipper (1226826) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850802)

Windows doesn't have to bother to make it easily installable/easy to work with (somewhat because it already is) since it already has the market it needs, Linux isn't that serious competition right now in the market for regular users. Linux however, being the weakling should work its ass off to break into Windows territory. And the only way to actually do it is make sure that it's easy to use (and to make work). It's so far off from it now, that it isn't even funny.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

aaron.axvig (1238422) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850826)

Agreed. Probably the thing I find most funny is how many stories there are on /. about how another application has finally been copied as a Linux app. Just like this story.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850958)

>Windows doesn't have to bother to make it easily installable/easy to work with (somewhat because it already is) since it already has the market it
>needs,

I argue that Linux also already has "the market it needs".

Re:Here is the truth... (3, Interesting)

argent (18001) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851948)

Ever try to install Windows alongside an existing OS?

I had Windows NT4, FreeBSD, BeOS, and Rhapsody DR1 running on the same PC.

It's not that bloody hard.

Hell, I had Windows 2000, FreeBSD, and BSD running on a Toshiba Libretto. That puppy was maxed out with 64M RAM.

IT'S NOT THAT HARD, except that Microsoft deliberately makes it harder than it needs to be.

The way I see it, it's good that we have a mostly homogeneous OS market.

Well, except for Windows, we do. Pretty much everything else is UNIX.

As for Microsoft, I wouldn't mind them so much being an evil empire if they were a competent evil empire. But it's over 10 years now and they STILL haven't fixed the whole IE / ActiveX security mess.

[erratum] (1)

argent (18001) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851974)

I wrote: "I had Windows 2000, FreeBSD, and BSD running on a Toshiba Libretto."

That should read "I had Windows 2000, FreeBSD, and BeOS running on a Toshiba Libretto."

Pardon me.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

aaron.axvig (1238422) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852242)

Did you install Windows 2000 after the other two? If so, then you probably had to re-do the boot loader after that anyways. So it's not easy, unless you do W2000 first, which leaves you relying on GRUB or something to know how to boot W2000.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

Miseph (979059) | more than 6 years ago | (#22853736)

Incidentally, GRUB can boot Windows just fine.

In fact, whenever XP crashes and I reboot so I can go back to gaming (including in Flash, see, I'm on-topic) I boot it through a GRUB menu. Works great, and only adds about 1.5s to my boot time, virtually all of which is me pressing the down key.

Going ot myself here... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22851228)

You are new here (or a troll), I can tell by your post more than your UID. Allow me to let you in on the secret. The GP is what is called a copy/paste troll. He wanders forums [kerneltrap.org] http://www.linux.com/feature/128941 [slashdot.org] ">posting the same text just to try to get people riled up. Yes, he has that little of a life. I been seeing bits of this post for years now.

And what use is an OS that a regular user can't install without incredible amounts of hassle?
That last statement is the classic if I can't use it, nobody can [ubuntuforums.org] troll. Just so you know why I am about to mod you down.

No, I'm New Here (1)

New Here (701369) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851588)

No, I'm New Here

Re:No, I'm New Here (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22851648)

xDDDDDDD

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851270)

In other news, people pay professionals to work on their cars. Film at 11.

Re:Here is the truth... (-1, Troll)

CRCulver (715279) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850778)

Nice try, but an adequate Slashdot troll requires a better command of English spelling and idiom. I'd suggest showing this copy/paste to a native speaker to correct it before posting in again here.

Re:Here is the truth... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850854)

Troll? It's the crushing truth man :P.

Re:Here is the truth... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22852014)

Native English speaker?

I say old boy, me knickers are a bit tight in the bum. All the tea and scrumpetts from breakfast must be settling. Top 'o the day to ya, Charlie!

Do I count?

Re:Here is the truth... (4, Informative)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850926)

The reality is that Linux has little to offer to the inexperienced user.

Face it, no OS has much to offer to the inexperienced user. The question is, how much does it take to become an experienced user? Or how much does the OS get in your way if you're inexperienced?

The same novice that is seen disconcerted by the impossibility to do a simple one copy-paste between QT and GTK applications.

Been doing this for years.

Go out and ask to the people how they install a program that does NOT have packages for its distribucción

Simple: Treat the distribution as an OS. If it doesn't have a native package for Ubuntu, then as a novice user, assume it doesn't support Ubuntu.

Now, I dare you to find a slicker way to install and maintain programs than Synaptic.

Explain him why in his Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Fedora cannot see many web pages: he must download the Flash and the Java plugin, in order then to install them with complicated commands.

Oh please:

apt-get install sun-java6-jre flashplugin-nonfree

And there's a GUI for that, too, if you need it. I think it prompts you on first boot now.

Also make him know that he won't be able to listen its MP3, WMA and WMV files.

Except he can -- again, absurdly simple to enable. First time you click on an MP3, you'll get a prompt that'll guide you through installing the necessary packages.

You're not even trying, are you?

Tell to the flaming buyer of a new AMD64 how he can play flash games.

Worst case? Tell them to install a 32-bit OS. Not as if they'd be worse off than in Windows.

besides, the drivers don't come in the distributions. ..becuase of the fucking freedom

Again, only a few clicks away. And once they're installed, they'll actually auto-update, and stay updated.

Believe it or not, installing XP on this laptop was worse -- tried downloading the drivers from nvidia.com, and they didn't work. The Toshiba site only had Vista drivers. Had to go to an old Toshiba UK site to find any. On Linux? Damned-near plug'n'play.

The proof of the free software failure is seen also in the professional world...

And then you go on to list a few apps that you don't like, but which do, indeed, prove that these things exist. Oh, and Maya has a Linux port.

In the software development industry there's not a single decent RAD tool.

Rails.

now prefer the most powerful system for software development: Microsoft Visual Studio.NET.

Which also can only be used reasonably on a machine with 2 gigs of RAM. May as well use Eclipse.

Accounting software? In Linux? There's not software in this area.

For business-level, maybe not. Personal-level, there's Gnucash and KMyMoney.

If Linux is free (in both senses)...Why the high computers-makers don't preinstall it (just a 1% make that)?

Dell does.

He wants to install his webcam without recompiling the kernel.

Literally plugged a webcam into a vanilla Kubuntu, had it running in Kopete with no tweaking whatsoever.

And at that point, you descend completely into a pointless rant, that makes me wonder exactly what Linux people you've been hanging out with -- if, indeed, you know anything about Linux at all. You make some good points, but you lose all credibility when you rant about problems that were fixed 2+ years ago, or actually complain about things that Linux does better than Windows.

Re:Here is the truth... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22852704)

Congratulations, you tore apart an obvious troll copypasta that's been around for, hmm, maybe a year or so? That's based on an ancient copypasta troll base post, but apparently was thinly updated a while back (said year or so ago).

Here's your cookie.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854618)

I was bored, and I like cookies.

Figured Vista hadn't been out long enough for this to be really ancient.

Re:Here is the truth... (1)

dfghjk (711126) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852802)

"Face it, no OS has much to offer to the inexperienced user. The question is, how much does it take to become an experienced user? Or how much does the OS get in your way if you're inexperienced?"

What a ridiculous dismissal. There are real differences between platforms when it comes to usability for the inexperienced. Saying that an inexperienced user can't get value out of ANY platform is just arguing language instead of the issue.

It's a shame that you worked so hard to put together good arguments otherwise.

Which hole is this filling? (1)

Intron (870560) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850644)

Re:Which hole is this filling? (1)

WarJolt (990309) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850744)

http://www.salasaga.org/index.php?page=download

It in fact depends on that library.

It's not only about flash.


* Glib and GTK+ - version 2.10 or higher of both is known to work
* Pango - version 1.16 or higher is known to work
* libxml2 - version 2.6.30 or higher is known to work
* Ming - version 0.4.0.beta5 or higher is known to work

Re:Which hole is this filling? (2, Funny)

Tetsujin (103070) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850984)

Well, it's not really that it fills one specific hole... If anything it's kind of a double-penetration thing...

Re:Which hole is this filling? (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851944)

Considering ming is a LIBRARY and not an IDE, i'd say it's pretty much a shovel, but there's no dirt to fill the hole yet.

Sala.. Salsa... Sallalsa... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22850716)

Stupid name.

Oh, THAT kind of flash (2, Informative)

overshoot (39700) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850732)

At first I thought it meant the light that comes out of 'puters with the magic smoke.

I never noticed that Linux had a problem in that regard.

Free Software (1)

Tovok7 (948510) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850742)

Do not forget to mention, that Salasaga [salasaga.org] is Free (as in free speech) Software licensed under the GNU Lesser General Public License. This program may be still lacking several important features, but at least everybody is free to contribute and improve this piece of software.

Ajax animator (1)

bencoder (1197139) | more than 6 years ago | (#22850760)

This [110mb.com] seems better than Salasaga at the moment, if you want something similar to flash. At least its an interesting project(project page here [110mb.com] ). Would be better if you could play with it without all the adverts though.

Other Options...? (3, Interesting)

wasbridge (1190863) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851110)

Salasaga is cool, but I am not totally sure that it fills the Linux community's need for a Flash IDE, though it does do a good job of creating web based interactive learning environments. I do not want to steal the light, but I want to get a word in. I have a more traditional (Open Source GPL) Flash IDE project which is based off of the Open Source Flex SDK. Its in C# .NET and via MonoDevelop, Cairo and GTK+ will port well to linux and OSX. Porting is on my list of TODOs for the next 2 weeks. Check it out at http://dialect.openmodeling.net./ [dialect.openmodeling.net]

Misread (3, Funny)

SeaFox (739806) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851136)

Am I the only one who read this as Sausage Fills Flash Creation Hole for Linux?

Re:Misread (1)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851774)

Yes...and I think Freud might have had something to say about this.

Re:Misread (1)

Chabil Ha' (875116) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852020)

That would have been a GLORIous HOLE to fill indeed.

Bad Linux software names (1)

MeditationSensation (1121241) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851148)

They go from the relatively cool Flame Project... to Salasaga!? Am I missing something here?

FU?CKER (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22851328)

States that there but suffice it non-Fucking-existant. practical purposes, locating #GNAA,

Flash is not essential (2, Insightful)

sega01 (937364) | more than 6 years ago | (#22851378)

While Flash is used in so many places, I really don't see it as essential. You can do a lot with SVG's and the existing web standards, and embed video with an open codec. My main problems with it are that it is completely proprietary. I try to run a pure open source system, and consider any boxes of mine that use the proprietary Flash plugin to be compromised (at least, on the level of the user than runs it). I would really like a Flash, Perl, Python, C++, .NET, Ruby, and Basic free world :-).

Re:Flash is not essential (1)

the_hoser (938824) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852160)

I would really like a Flash, Perl, Python, C++, .NET, Ruby, and Basic free world :-).

While I can understand your desire to rid the world of Flash, your obvious bias against scripting lanuages has me irked. I'd hate to live in a world where the only language available was C. Why don't we just get rid of HTML and image formats! Maybe we can be rid of window managers, too! All anyone ever needs is a 80x25 text console.

Yay 1981!

Re:Flash is not essential (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22854240)

See, that's his plan all along. If we go back to that, he gets his hair and erections back!

Re:Flash is not essential (1)

lnxpilot (453564) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854066)

"I would really like a Flash, Perl, Python, C++, .NET, Ruby, and Basic free world :-)"

Amen to that. :)

The file form at says it all. (1)

andreyvul (1176115) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852488)

It was designed for trolls to post slideshows. Why otherwise would the file extension be .flame?

What Gap? (1)

antimatter15 (1261618) | more than 6 years ago | (#22852828)

http://osflash.org/projects [osflash.org] Large list of open-source flash-related projects, alot (most?) of them are cross-platform.

SalaaaaaSalllaSalasagaa..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22853260)

SalaaaaaSalllaSalasagaa..... not gonna work here any more.

WHY -- for the love of fucking god --- can't Linux nerds pick a name that people can pronounce?!?!?!?!?

These are the same assholes that cry when they get no mainstream press.

Two fucking rules. TWO!

1. Make sure I can pronounce it
2. Make sure it is easy to spell

Re:SalaaaaaSalllaSalasagaa..... (1)

Solra Bizna (716281) | more than 6 years ago | (#22854916)

WHY -- for the love of fucking god --- can't Linux nerds pick a name that people can pronounce?!?!?!?!?

You can pronounce "mmcndmgr.dll"?

-:sigma.SB

worth a link (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22855156)

added to the SVG link resource [startpagina.nl]

Is there an FOSS equivalent to Flash? (2, Interesting)

AP31R0N (723649) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855560)

It would be nice to have an open standard that allows people to create animated crap that doesn't require slurping from the adobe teat. Something any browser could run, with, or maybe even without a plugin.
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