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FBI Looks Into Chinese Role in Darfur Site Hack

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the those-guys-sure-do-get-around dept.

Security 107

Amy Bennett writes "This past weekend we discussed an increasing level of attacks online, targeting Tibetan-based NGOs. Now the BBC is reporting that the Save Darfur Coalition has called in the FBI on what appears to be a similar matter. Allyn Brooks-LaSure, a spokesman with the group, doesn't know who is behind the attacks, but he said the IP addresses of the computers that had hacked his organization were from China. Save Darfur has been trying to get China, one of Sudan's largest trading partners, to pressure Sudan's government into stopping the mass killings in Darfur's ongoing civil war. 'Someone in Beijing is trying to send us a message,' Brooks-LaSure said. Probably the same message they're sending by continuing to shut down video sites covering the Tibetan unrest."

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No chinese term for "bad PR"? (5, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855784)

They are on the verge of becoming a world superpower. They have worked hard to build up close economic ties with the West. They stand to make billions on the deals they've struck. They have been given a chance to host the Olpympics, a golden opportunity to show the world they've arrived.

And what do they do? They proceed to show the world that they are still a backwards oppressive country with no common sense, jeopardizing much of the progress that they've made over a bunch of piss-ass monks and to avoid some bad press that 99.9% of the world would have ignored if they hadn't tried so hard to supress it.

Is there no Chinese term for "Bad PR" or are they just that stupid?

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the Dali Lama (like Penn Gillette, I think his intentions are a lot less pure [google.com] than he lets on). But jeez China, USE YOUR HEAD. At least wait until AFTER the Olympics to start busting heads.

Does China's leadership even care (5, Insightful)

Shivetya (243324) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855814)

that is the real question. I think they don't.

Why? Because even with all the previous threats and actual atrocities they committed they were granted the Olympics. Every time they threaten Taiwan and the US responds in the political arena its the US who is chastised for being the war mongers.

The real question is, what is the fate of places like Tibet and Taiwan during and AFTER the Olympics?

Re:Does China's leadership even care (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856048)

Every time they threaten Taiwan and the US responds in the political arena its the US who is chastised for being the war mongers.

Correct. Don't forget the universal leftist/socialist/progressive meme: "America bad!" And if happens that some non-American country has done something undeniably bad then the universal leftist/socialist/progressive response is: "But America is even worse."

Re:Does China's leadership even care (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856586)

Don't forget the universal right-wing fascist regressive meme "The rest of the world just hates the US". Whenever any comment is made that paints the US in less of a favourable light, always point out that it's just America-bashing and not to be taken seriously.

Re:Does China's leadership even care (1)

genner (694963) | more than 6 years ago | (#22859268)

Yeah China is gulity of playing this card.....but in America it's even worse.

Re:Does China's leadership even care (1, Flamebait)

utopianfiat (774016) | more than 6 years ago | (#22859504)

There's a big misunderstanding here. The "meme" itself is only what the right-wing/fascist/regressive camp chooses to hear- in reality a lot of leftists will point out what exactly is fucked up about an aspect of American policy and the right-wing chooses to disagree with the statement, on the grounds that if the "liberal" (term for "people who disagree with conservatives") thinks there's something wrong with America that the "conservative" does not, well the "liberal" must just hate America. The implied message is that conservatives love America.
And yet the conservative movement hates America! Every new deal program that keeps Americans from starving, every time a woman makes a choice to abort, every time a muslim immigrates to the US- if the conservative is put under the exact same standards as the liberal they must "hate America" as well, since they seem to be unhappy with it.
Personally, I think at least the leftists are making an effort to keep the US secular- I think if conservatives want a theocracy they're more than welcome to move to Iran.

In before Utah.

Re:Does China's leadership even care (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22861032)

Don't forget the universal leftist/socialist/progressive meme: "America bad!" And if happens that some non-American country has done something undeniably bad then the universal leftist/socialist/progressive response is: "But America is even worse."
For the sake of argument, let's say that America and some non-American country do the exact same "undeniably bad" act... like torturing prisoners. Also for the sake of argument, let's say that the non-American country doesn't even have any laws against such "undeniably bad" acts.

Now, if you asked me who was bad, I'd say both countries.
If you asked me who was worse, I'd say America, because we're supposed to be better than that.

Re:Does China's leadership even care (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 6 years ago | (#22862130)

Every time they threaten Taiwan and the US responds in the political arena its the US who is chastised for being the war mongers.

Correct. Don't forget the universal leftist/socialist/progressive meme: "America bad!" And if happens that some non-American country has done something undeniably bad then the universal leftist/socialist/progressive response is: "But America is even worse."
China threatens Taiwan.
The U.S.A. threatens, then blows up, invades and occupies Iraq.

But, China bad! China worse! Because Amurika perfect and above all reproach! It not actions that count on Bizarro world, it image!

Not to do a flamebait... (2, Insightful)

aepervius (535155) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856366)

...but in the last 10 years I can hardly think of a war started by china. So maybe the US reputation of warmonger isn't so overrated.

To the mods (2, Insightful)

aepervius (535155) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856926)

You might feel it as a flamebait... But sadly this is the feeling which is most probably shared by a lot of people right now. In the last 10 years the US has waged more war than China did (zero for China as far as I can tell). As such the US has earned a reputation of warmonger, whereas China, however how bad at human right is, has made no war in the last 10 years, and thus is not a warmonger.

Re:Not to do a flamebait... (0, Troll)

TheLink (130905) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857182)

The US Gov loves to use China as a bogeyman to the citizens e.g. "Oh no the chinese will kill us all".

Sure the Chinese Gov is evil etc, but it's maybe only slightly above average in evilness[1] and I doubt they are stupid enough to attack US Gov - it will hurt China a lot too.

After all the USA buys what China makes and pays them in US Dollars. Whenever the USA runs short on dollars it "prints" more (for example by issuing bonds, which China buys ;) ). Printing more USD = USD becomes worth less, the USA thus indirectly "taxes" China and the other countries that hold lots of USD in reserves for trade, or bonds or assets. It's a strange scheme but it's lasting longer than the other previous schemes!

China can NOT afford to confront the USA directly. I bet any Chinese leader that tries to launch nukes at the USA or declare war will end up in serious trouble with the Chinese military top brass _unless_ the USA strikes first or threatens to strike first. Judging from history and current regimes it is more likely that the USA will bomb China before China will bomb USA.

Even the USSR blinked in the Cuban crisis (though if you look it up you will find that the USA put missiles at the USSR's doorstep _first_, the USSR was most certainly a bad guy, but they had valid reason to want to defend themselves from the USA). So the USSR and USA fought proxy wars in Afghanistan and other countries. Instead of killing each other's civilians - they pick some unfortunate country to play their deadly game. The USSR lost.

Similarly, the most China will do is fight a proxy war with the USA.

China is gaining ground in economic and military strength, but the USA spends almost as much as the rest of the world combined. http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

So one could very well say that China has to keep up its military spending to discourage the US from attacking it, or bullying it.

[1] Plenty of other evil countries in the world, the US Gov ranks as quite evil - just look at how well the US Gov respects democracy in other countries. In the past 100 years the US Gov has overthrown many democratically elected governments around the world. I suspect that the US Gov has overthrown more democractically elected leaders than it has overthrown dictators (it's no surprise many dictators know how to resist "hostile takeovers" since they themselves were installed with the help of the US Gov).

Re:Does China's leadership even care (1)

samsamsamj (1086689) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856706)

The real question is, what is the fate of places like Tibet and Taiwan during and AFTER the Olympics?
In case you haven't noticed, Taiwan's KMT, which supports closer ties with China, just won a landslide victory at the presidential election. And the "joining UN" referendums, which may be used to serve a prelude to the independence referendum, were both defeated.

Re:Does China's leadership even care (1)

kcelery (410487) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858848)

After Chinese spend so much effort to organize the Olympics and subsequent investment etc. It would be a total moron for the Chinese to initiate any crackdown on the Tibetans. The Chinese don't need such negative publicity by any measure. On the other hand, the separatist Tibetans could take this opportunity to stir up a scene when the Olympic torch pass through their area. They would receive the least suppression from the govt. The timing favors the separatists. Dalai lama must have a good PR team to organize the show.

Re:Does China's leadership even care (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22859166)

The real question is, what is the fate of places like Tibet and Taiwan during and AFTER the Olympics?
I imagine the status quo. They are, they have always been, and they will forever be part of China.

Re:Why does the US care about those places? (1)

hackingbear (988354) | more than 6 years ago | (#22860858)

The US interest in Tibet and Taiwan is for its own strategic interests, rather than genuine concern over human rights. Back in 1970's, China was still under Mao and was in a period known as the Cultural Revolution; it was one million times more oppressive than it is now and over half million people died for political reason (comparing to maybe tens to hundreds, depending on the reports you read, of people are under arrest for political views today.) YET , it was at that time the US gave up on Taiwan to foster closer tie with China in order to fend off the Soviet Unions. And now, China has opened up and has much better human rights landscape comparing to the pre-reform era, but the US started pressing China on the human rights and gave Taiwan much more supports. Why? Because China becomes so strong now and Taiwan is known as the "unsinkable aircraft carrier" of the US to contain China's expansion. The US cannot afford to lose it -- not to mention the billions of dollars of weapon sales. To the best of our interest, Taiwan should neither go independent nor re-unify with China, we should continue to provoke the war of words between China and Taiwan and enjoy the billions of weapon sales 9along with the Russian defense industry.)

Similarly, Tibet is such a remote mountainous region with very limited resources and capability, it is only good for deploying missiles. Tibet cannot be truly independent -- it must rely on some big country for foods and supports. either it can rely on China or it relies on the US. The US can then deploy missiles along its food supplies -- like what we do in easter European countries.

And for your last question, nothing bad will happen to either places after the Olympics or in the future, unless the US start stirring up again. They are just two pieces on the chess board played by China and the US -- just like China used to be a piece on the board between US and Soviet Unions. Oh... by the way, Taiwan just elected a pro-China president over the weekend, ditching the pro-independent DPP.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (4, Insightful)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855860)

They are on the verge of becoming a world superpower

On the verge? What would happen to our economy if we had a falling out? Damned near everything you can buy these days is made there!

Plus, they have for decades had nuclear weapons.

They not only already are a superpower, they are more powerful than the US. I don't see how we could possibly hurt them, but they could destroy us.

Thank you, patriotic multinational corporations, for buying my government and ruining my once great nation.

-mcgrew

(yes, I'm in a bad mood)

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855880)

Bah, until you're popular on YouTube you're nothing.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857486)

No, until you have an entry on Uncyclopedia [uncyclopedia.org] you're nothing. Please congratulate your mom for me.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (5, Insightful)

johnsonav (1098915) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855994)

They not only already are a superpower, they are more powerful than the US. I don't see how we could possibly hurt them, but they could destroy us.
They're not more powerful than the US. We both have a loaded gun pointed at the other in the form of trade. Sure, they could pretty well screw us over economically if they decided to. But there are hundreds of millions of newly urbanized Chinese, who make the toys and electronics that are shipped to the west, who would be very pissed off if the actions of their current government resulted in the loss of their relatively good paying jobs.

I would be surprised if the government of China would throw away the last fifty years of economic progress in their country over something like Tibet or Taiwan. There is a large section of their population who only accept the repressive authoritarianism of their government because of the massive increase in the standard of living. Take that away, and the current leaders will be out on their asses.

What goes around ... (1)

CmdrGravy (645153) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856796)

Seems to me the best solution for the Chinese would be to make sure there markets remain stable and willing to buy Chinese manufactured goods. If this involves a military assault on Washington and annexing New York, San Fransico and LA to ensure US co-operation then so be it thats just good business.

Re:What goes around ... (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857422)

Well yes, it is in their interest to make sure the markets are good. But what if they decide it isn't in their interest? Then what?

Re:What goes around ... (2, Insightful)

johnsonav (1098915) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858200)

Well yes, it is in their interest to make sure the markets are good. But what if they decide it isn't in their interest? Then what?
That's when one hundred million urban Chinese men, only a generation removed from the rice paddy, who got used to their cell phones, DVD players and relatively high standard of living, decide that returning to the country farm, when the factory they used to work at closes, isn't what they would like to do. Without those factories that manufacture goods for export, there will be an awful lot of pissed off young men who have an issue with the current Chinese government.

Not to mention that many of those factories are owned by the Chinese military. They might have something to say about the government closing off markets for trade.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (3, Interesting)

vertinox (846076) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856950)

I would be surprised if the government of China would throw away the last fifty years of economic progress in their country over something like Tibet or Taiwan.

If Taiwan did declare independence (officially) there would be military action from China even if it means war with the US.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 6 years ago | (#22863448)

Well, fuck em!

For China to bitch over Taiwan would be like the UK bitching over how America is still theirs. China had a civil war and the nation split. One side is on the mainland, the other on an island. So much has changed now, they should be looked at as two independent nations.

I sware, the Chinese government is populated with a bunch of cry babies. Waaahhhhhh

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (3, Insightful)

chrispalasz (974485) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857420)

They're not more powerful than the US. We both have a loaded gun pointed at the other in the form of trade. Sure, they could pretty well screw us over economically if they decided to. But there are hundreds of millions of newly urbanized Chinese, who make the toys and electronics that are shipped to the west, who would be very pissed off if the actions of their current government resulted in the loss of their relatively good paying jobs.

This is a good point.

I always used to joke around and say that if the US wanted to shut down almost every economy in the world... all the government has to do is close down Starbucks Coffee, McDonald's, and Coke.

But really, the economy of the US has extremely deep roots that won't be pulled out so easily. There's a world economy, and the foundation of it is the US, and more recently the EU. When you start seeing Chinese companies expanding worldwide is when you can start saying China is an economic competitor. Right now... they're just doing everyone else's industrialized dirty work. Why? Because there are a lot of people there... and a huge percentage of them are dirt poor. But right now... which nation's companies do you see selling the cars? How about computers? Cell phones? Other electronics? Gas? Anything that is widely known or popular among people? Not Chinese companies. No, they are still decades behind- and not just the US. South Korea is even blowing China out of the water, economically.

The world economy is a pretty delicate web. You can't just take any nation out without having a noticeable negative impact on other large economies, like people seem to be assuming. It doesn't work like that.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

NeutronCowboy (896098) | more than 6 years ago | (#22859150)

I would be surprised if the government of China would throw away the last fifty years of economic progress in their country over something like Tibet or Taiwan.


There is a little story that goes somewhat like this:
Once upon a time, there was a Chinese emperor who had a powerful neighbor. That neighbor sent a messenger to the emperor, demanding gold and all sorts of valuables in tribute. The emperor sent the messenger away with the requested tribute.
A few years later, the neighbor again sent a messenger. This time though, he asked for women in tribute, including the emperors daughter. Again, the emperor sent the messenger on his way, having handed over the tribute, including his daughter.
Finally, a few more years later, the neighbor sent another messenger. This time, the neighbor asked for land. In response, the emperor cut off the messengers head, invaded the neighbor and killed everyone at the top.

Watch some home grown Chinese movies. Tibet and Taiwan are the one thing that China will wage war over. Everything else can be negotiated. Land will not be. Not only that, but a large number of Chinese agree with this sentiment.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22860904)

Please don't delude yourself. Thinking like that is what motivated your government to invade Iraq with insufficient numbers.

Oh, we could hurt them... (5, Insightful)

Crazy Taco (1083423) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856422)

On the verge? What would happen to our economy if we had a falling out? Damned near everything you can buy these days is made there! Plus, they have for decades had nuclear weapons. They not only already are a superpower, they are more powerful than the US. I don't see how we could possibly hurt them, but they could destroy us. Thank you, patriotic multinational corporations, for buying my government and ruining my once great nation.

Actually, I still think we could hurt them far more than they can hurt us, for the following reasons:

  1. Yes, they make everything, but who buys their stuff? If no one buys their stuff, what happens to them? They lose trillions of dollars. If they stop making their stuff, what happens to us? In the short term, prices on eBay go up for goods Americans have that are out of stock, but in the long run, we build our own factories to fill the market needs, and that is actually good for Americans. And if the factories don't get built here, they go to India and Latin American countries, which are far more stable anyway.
  2. You say they have nuclear weapons. Well, we have more, and as China is a smaller nation in terms of land area, we have the advantage of having less square footage to wipe out. You say you can't see how we could hurt them, when we could actually wipe out their country many times over. And we have a least a partial missile shield, which of course wouldn't stop them, but is at least slightly better than the nothing they have. So there isn't going to be a nuclear engagement.
  3. If we had a conventional weapons war, our conventional weapons are better. True, they have more people, but as more of our weaponry becomes automated that becomes less of an advantage for them, so long as we can mass produce our robots.
  4. We also have higher technology than they do. We alone posess most of the technology for making the fastest computer chips, and that gives us an extraordinary advantage. They recently attempted to make their own home grown "Dragon" PC chip in an effort to not be dependent on us, and it turned out to be the equivalent of a very slow 486.

I will agree with you on one thing though: our multinationals are selling us out. They are building factories there so that they can sell in that market and avoid duties, but that really sucks for us because it pumps up the economy of a repressive regime. Still, though, at least that reason is better than the more common reason, which is that they want cheap labor to make goods they will ultimately sell not in China, but in the US. That's almost treason to humanity, because there are many countries in the world that aren't so repressive and that have people who would be desperate for those jobs and would work just as cheap. But no, we give their jobs to the repressive nation.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (1)

sm62704 (957197) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857454)

Very good points, I think you convinced me.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (3, Insightful)

Twisted Willie (1035374) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857762)

Don't forget that China has a massive dollar reserve. They have the power to completely crash the value of the dollar by dumping their reserve on the global market. And if they would actually do this, every country with dollar reserves would follow to minimize their losses.

Their reserves would be hurt by a dollar crash ofcourse, but they'd have the 'bonus' of massively increasing prices on imported goods for the USA. Including oil, because if the dollar would crash, OPEC would most likely start pricing their barrels in Euros.

It's pretty much MADD, but this time on an economic level.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (1)

gnick (1211984) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858474)

This is certainly a case of economic Mutually Assured Destruction. We're civilized now - We no longer threaten to blow up our rivals' citizens, we threaten to starve them.

It's pretty much MADD, but this time on an economic level.
I'm not sure that Mothers Against Drunk Driving really have a vested interest in this situation... =)

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (1)

Twisted Willie (1035374) | more than 6 years ago | (#22860316)

I'd love to say I was preoccupied with a Double D, but alas, I'm posting on /.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (1)

curmudgeous (710771) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858188)

...our multinationals are selling us out. They are building factories there so that they can sell in that market and avoid duties...

I agree, but in the end the multinationals will suffer as well. What good is the official multinational product selling at X when there's another factory a couple miles up the road making a practically identical product that can be sold for 1/10 X? The multinationals are heavily dependent on IP laws to protect their bottom line, but the local Chinese businessman (or so I've read) has no problem with copying a product to make it better/cheaper and undercutting the other guy. They snag a copy of the legit product, tear it down, and within days have a competing version that can be sold on the local market for a fraction of the original.

Just do a Google search for articles about Chinese iPhone rip offs.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (1)

droptone (798379) | more than 6 years ago | (#22859546)

And if the factories don't get built here, they go to India and Latin American countries, which are far more stable anyway.

I don't think anyone has every accused Latin America of being stable. And yes, I know that is a relatively minor point but it just gave a me a chuckle seeing such a claim. Although it could be a serious problem since if Latin America can't be counted on, where will we turn? India? Right beside China and if China wants to undermine our production they won't sit idle as India produces material for their enemy. Africa? Outside of the otherwise huge problems in Africa in general (yes, I know Africa is not a country), China is pouring money into Africa like nobody's business and unless stable democracies develop, the dictators which rule Africa will be fine whoring themselves to the highest bidder.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (3, Interesting)

CowTipperGore (1081903) | more than 6 years ago | (#22860300)

Yes, they make everything, but who buys their stuff? If no one buys their stuff, what happens to them? They lose trillions of dollars. If they stop making their stuff, what happens to us? In the short term, prices on eBay go up for goods Americans have that are out of stock, but in the long run, we build our own factories to fill the market needs, and that is actually good for Americans. And if the factories don't get built here, they go to India and Latin American countries, which are far more stable anyway.
By outsourcing to India and Latin American countries, America is actually cutting her own throat - she is personally building the economies that will allow the Chinese to stop propping up her failing economy. India followed only China in growth in recent years and is now considered in the top dozen economies of the world, while accounting for about 17% of the world's population (about four times more consumers than the US). Brazil has more than half the population of the US and a stronger economy than India. Don't forget about Russia, the third strongest growing economy who is aggressively pushing population growth and relations with China. China's dependence on the US consumer is a very time-limited reality.

I'm completely confused about your comment about India and Latin America being far more stable than China. The US has directly used economic and military pressure to keep Latin America unstable for better than half a century. There's almost always multiple civil wars in progress (or fights between terrorists and puppet dictators, if you like).

You say they have nuclear weapons. Well, we have more, and as China is a smaller nation in terms of land area, we have the advantage of having less square footage to wipe out. You say you can't see how we could hurt them, when we could actually wipe out their country many times over. And we have a least a partial missile shield, which of course wouldn't stop them, but is at least slightly better than the nothing they have. So there isn't going to be a nuclear engagement.
I can't speak for the parent poster, but I read his comment about nuclear weapons simply as a statement supporting his assessment of China's current superpower status. It is ludicrous to suggest, as you do, that a difference in land mass gives us some advantage in a nuclear war. To quote Joshua, the only winning move is not to play.

If we had a conventional weapons war, our conventional weapons are better. True, they have more people, but as more of our weaponry becomes automated that becomes less of an advantage for them, so long as we can mass produce our robots.
The recent wars undertaken by the US are but minor skirmishes compared to a military confrontation with China, yet the US military industry is supported primarily by loans from China. If the US economy were forced to bear the cost of Afghanistan and Iraq, the current economic woes would seem like the good old days. Now imagine the costs of a real war, then factor in that America would be fighting against the nation financing its current military operations. I see a relatively small window in which you can continue to mass produce your magic robots.

We also have higher technology than they do. We alone posess most of the technology for making the fastest computer chips, and that gives us an extraordinary advantage. They recently attempted to make their own home grown "Dragon" PC chip in an effort to not be dependent on us, and it turned out to be the equivalent of a very slow 486.
Your "stable" comment in your first point confused me. Now you've totally lost me. You think that all computer technology knowledge is locked away in a vault somewhere in the US? Perhaps you keep it in Fort Knox? I guess you aren't aware that Intel has production facilities in China, Costa Rica, Malaysia, Israel, Ireland, India, Philippines, and Russia? I don't suppose you realized that AMD's primary research and manufacturing location is in Germany? I don't imagine that you would know that a huge amount of computer technology is manufactured in Taiwan and that it would be part of China immediately in the event of a war with the US?

As for your comments about the Chinese processor, I don't suppose you'd care to share who figured out that it is the equivalent of a slow 486? The original Loongson was a 32-bit CPU designed for low-impact embedded applications. The Loongson 2 is a 64-bit chip that runs at speeds up to 1.2 GHz. It was used in China's first domestic teraflop supercomputer. The 1 GHz version of the Loongson 2 was shown to be comparable to a later-generation P4 and could be produced for much less. The multi-core Loongson 3 is not yet in production but is rumored to support up to 16 cores.

Re:Oh, we could hurt them... (1)

Crazyswedishguy (1020008) | more than 6 years ago | (#22861152)

You say they have nuclear weapons. Well, we have more, and as China is a smaller nation in terms of land area, we have the advantage of having less square footage to wipe out.

From the CIA World Factbook:

USA:

total: 9,826,630 sq km
land: 9,161,923 sq km
water: 664,707 sq km
note: includes only the 50 states and District of Columbia

China:

total: 9,596,960 sq km
land: 9,326,410 sq km
water: 270,550 sq km

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22855884)

i've worked with a number of chinese and with one exception they are unethical, scheming, lying cunts. it's a pity the japs stopped at nanking.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22855896)

They proceed to show the world that they are still a backwards oppressive country with no common sense

Should they have set up free speech zones?

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (5, Funny)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855936)

They should probably start with "Don't beat the shit out of monks in front of international television cameras and reporters."

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

samsamsamj (1086689) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856610)

Gosh, get your fact straight first. You know where Kathmandu is?

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856672)

Yeah, that kind of thing is reserved for Abu Grahib.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

DJCacophony (832334) | more than 6 years ago | (#22860362)

You're thinking of Burma/Myanmar. China made sure to evict all journalists from Tibet before they started beating monks.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

Skeetskeetskeet (906997) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855950)

It seems that YouTube (aka ScrewYOUTube) has taken down the Penn and Gillette for "terms of use violation".... I guess they are under Chinese control as well....and Scientology too.

IP Adress != Proof of government involvement (4, Interesting)

clragon (923326) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855952)

Remember the internet attacks on Estonia [wikipedia.org] ? The IP Adresses came from Russian so people speculated that the Russian government were behind the attacks for political pressure. But it turned out not to be.

You have to realize that many Chinese youth today feel China is wronged by the West by a double standard, I won't go into the details as you can read them yourself (ex. the fb group "Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China"). But the point is, the attack is more likely to be caused by a Chinese citizen than the government itself.

In another story I read this comment by Digestromath (1190577) and it pretty much nails it.

Believe or not, extreme nationalists are willing to do the dirty work for free. It doesn't matter what country your in, you'll find some extreme patriots willing to go above and beyond to silence thier radical counterparts. Some governments do more to stop them, others do less... when it suits them.

Like the parent said, the Chinese government would be stupid to attack these sites right before the Olympics. I read a book called "China Shakes the World" By James Kynge and in one chapter in mentioned how the Chinese government has "nurtured nationalism in the youth into so potent a force that they are about to loose control of it."(remembering from the top of my mind...)For example, Only recently are the Japanese portrayed in a semi-positive light in WWII TV series, which probably explains the large amount of people that participate in anti-Japanese riots.

Of course the Chinese government could do more to stop these attacks, but the political climate in China prevents it from happening. No, I'm not talking about the dictatorship of the people. See, anyone that stands up and say these actions are wrong would be labeled a traitor by both politicians and majority of the citizens alike. So politicians tries to avoid denouncing anti-foreigner actions for the sake of their own skin.

Parent is spot-on but doesn't go far enough (2, Interesting)

amplt1337 (707922) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857310)

See, anyone that stands up and say these actions are wrong would be labeled a traitor by both politicians and majority of the citizens alike. So politicians tries to avoid denouncing anti-foreigner actions for the sake of their own skin.

It's more than that; that kind of nationalism (such as the "eternal dominance" claims over Tibet and Taiwan) serves directly to legitimize the power and prestige of the existing government. They're not just scared to denounce it; they actively encourage it because it helps promote their power. People who are passionately committed to their existing government and to what they see it as standing for don't much care if they technically can't vote or publicly disagree with policy; and it's much easier to convince a mob that they're The Best, from The Longest Cultural Tradition, with a Manifest Destiny Over Everything, etc. than to convince them that they don't need a public sphere because Things Are In Good Hands. Especially in the sticks, where there's no other distraction because they won't get rich and live fat, dumb, and happy.

If you think about it, it's exactly the same tactics that function very effectively in (ferinstance) conservative politics in the US.

Re:IP Adress != Proof of government involvement (1)

nmosfet (770062) | more than 6 years ago | (#22861766)

>For example, Only recently are the Japanese portrayed in a semi-positive light in WWII TV series, which probably explains the large amount of people that participate in anti-Japanese riots.

Umm, do you even know about the atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII? It was worse than Hitler. Many westerners don't seem to know or care. Also, the resentment not specific to Chinese people. Don't believe me, ask non-Japanese Asians what what their opinions are?

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

Skeetskeetskeet (906997) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856042)

Not ONE link works to see the Dalai Lama bullshit video from Penn and Teller...are we THAT afraid of China we can't allow people to watch this video?????

Did you know that... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856322)

The Chinese shooting team needs to practice for the Olympics, preferably with moving targets, you insensitive clod!

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

samsamsamj (1086689) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856450)

Why don't you use your own head? Chinese officials are mostly technocrats who want immediate and effective solutions rather than good press. While good press is nice, if it's beyond their reaches they won't hold on that super-ego.

What's more important? Containing the ethnic riots at home or win the propaganda war in the west? And is it even possible for the later? Will the bad press stop if the western media is given the direct access to Tibet? No! They'll just continue turning a blind eye on balancing report and ethical journalism and do their best nitpicking on every move of the police. You'll see extremely enlarged pictures of Tibetan bleeding, screaming, suffering, which serves the purpose of adding ammunitions to the riots. Yeah you've already seen those, while the police is from Nepal, the blood are made of red paint, and the screaming and suffering are well staged like the Albanians in Kosovo. You know where Kathmandu is? I bet most average Joe don't, and CNN can't be bothered to tell you it's NOT the capital of Tibet, then we read your silly columnists accusing the brutal treatments of Tibetans by Chinese police. So what difference does it make?

Good press results from soft power, and soft power is not achievable in one night. For technocrats, apparently soft power eventually results from hard power, which they believe they'll get in the end. Look at Taiwan. That serves a pretty good example and indication on what the China will do about Tibet.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (0, Troll)

CmdrGravy (645153) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856956)

I'm not sure how the events in Tibet can exactly reflect all that badly on the Chinese, from what I see on the news a whole bunch of Tibetans have been engaged in racially motivated attacks on Chinese Tibetans and the authorities have quite rightly done what they have to protect all Tibetans from this sort of violence.

All I hear on the news are various western talking heads banging on about Buddism being a religion of perfect peace and how evil China is whilst totally ignoring the facts that Tibet has always been a part of China in the same way Scotland is a part of the UK and the Tibetans are well known for their propensity to engage in warfare and violent conflict ( along with petty theft and slavery ) which they revere as a key part of their heritage and that I have to say doesn't sound all that peaceful to me.

I'd say the Tibetans have a much better PR machine than the Chinese, at least in the West, thanks to the sheer number of useless, ignorant media stars willing to kow tow to the Dali Lama and swallow any line of bullshit he feeds them.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

billcopc (196330) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857200)

The thing is, China realizes that it doesn't matter what they do. They could all force their slave citizens to rape and kill their daughters, film it all and upload to Youtube.cn for the depraved enjoyment of government staff, and the Walmarts of the world would still kiss China's ass for cheap products to sell.

China knows this, which is why they ignore what the rest of the world thinks. They know that nothing matters outside of China, unless it's a piece of paper with a lot of numbers on it.

The only logical outcome for earth is total destruction. Normally it would take a while, but the day the US and China start beefing they're going to greatly accelerate the process. There's just no way such mindless greed can go on much longer without severe repercussions.

Bingo! (1)

Imazalil (553163) | more than 6 years ago | (#22860732)

Was going to write the exact thing. Chinese leadership has always done as they please, and the 'west' coming in and wanting to use their facilities/cheap labour only doesn't change anything, it only provides them with a skilled workforce, and lots of 'western' technology for free.

If anything this has let the leadership know that as long as we get our cheap toys and electronics we'll turn a blind eye to anything not directly impacting the price and availability of said cheap items.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

nstlgc (945418) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857768)

What I find more shocking is not that they do it, but that they've been doing this for YEARS without ANY worthwhile repercussion from the Western world they've been bonding with. They know Economy doesn't care about Ethics.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

jandersen (462034) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858028)

And what do they do?
I don't see them doing anything they haven't seen the West - most notably the US - do over and over, and get away with it. That doesn't mean that oppression is OK, but in the real world it doesn't matter, because it doesn't matter to most people in the world, as long as they have what they want. I'm sure you can think of something you, yourself, do without caring about what goes on behind the scenes. Do you drink Coca Cola? Does it bother you that the Coca Cola company allegedly runs a factory in India that sucks so much water out of the ground that the local farmers can't get any water?

I think if you step back a little, you'll find that China is doing what most nations would have to do if they were in the same situation; they try to keep things from going ballistic, and they try to not let it spoil the show. But there is only so much one can do against a group of hell-raisers; there are always people in the world who are willing to support a cause without checking what it is all about. Hence the widespread support amongst Americans for the IRA, just to take one example, or for a dubious sect like Falun Gong.

Sometimes you are left no choice but to "oppress" if you want to avoid widespread civil unrest. I think one should look at the wider picture - over the last 30 years China has actually made incredible progress on all fronts: economically, socially and politically. It seems likely that they will continue to do so, if they manage to hold the country together and in peace, and I think it is in the interest of the whole of the rest of the world to help ensure that they succceed. Because if China descends into chaos, it will hit not just SE Asia - including Tibet, Japan, Taiwan, the Koreas, Thailand, ... - but all of us. The world simply isn't a bunch of isolated states anymore, we stand or fall together.

I think people in the West need to take off their blinkers; stop uncritically supporting whatever "sounds good", stop letting the ultra-reactionaries and the religious nuts tell us what to think, and make the effort ourselves.

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

TheRecklessWanderer (929556) | more than 6 years ago | (#22860290)

Do you think the Chinese really care about PR in the US?



I don't think they do very much. If the US (North America for that matter) decide to stop buying stuff from China, the US is done. You can't exist without your Chinese trading partners. They do all the work that American's won't do, or at least won't do for the salary paid to the Chinese.



It's a sad business (for us) but North America is screwed. Maybe not next week or next month, but sooner or later, the economy is going to collapse, infrastructure is going to collapse and who knows what will happen.


North America consumes too much, and doesn't contribute squat in terms of manufacturing.


The sad part is most people have their heads stuck in the sand and don't want to know what is happening in the world.


And who is this group who is giving authority for the FBI to investigate something in Asia? Are they an Asian government?

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22862698)

Bad PR, yes. But if you delve deeper, you will realize the violence on March 14 was mostly committed by the Tibetan marchers:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/ [cnn.com]

Is mob violence justified? Palestine? Israel? Central Park on the PR day parade? Tibet?

Re:No chinese term for "bad PR"? (1)

hackingbear (988354) | more than 6 years ago | (#22863342)

Is there no Chinese term for "Bad PR" or are they just that stupid?
Wait until they hire a PR and lobbying firm in Washington, D.C. and the problem will be fixed. Actually I read a news on a Hong Kong newspaper websites the other day that many lobbying firms are opening up offices in Beijing under variety of disguise -- not sure if they want to help American penetrate the Chinese government or help the Chinese penetrate the U.S. government -- or both.

First post? (1)

MilesAttacca (1016569) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855790)

I find it amazing that countries are still able to act with such impunity over the Internet, just because they aren't doing these things in the physical realm.

Re:First post? (1)

aleph42 (1082389) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855916)

That might be the science fiction fan in me speaking, but isn't this exactly the "war between robots" that we've been wishing for, were the only casualities are mechanical (or here, software)?

(Of course, I'm not speaking of the killing of tibetans.) If hacking becomes like economic warfare, a way for countries to gain influence that doesn't involve sending people shooting each other, I say it's a good thing.

Re:First post? (1)

MilesAttacca (1016569) | more than 6 years ago | (#22863706)

On the other hand, if war becomes so easy to carry out, why think before starting it, and why bother ending it?

IP was from China, sooo? (3, Insightful)

SystematicPsycho (456042) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855804)

So what if the IP came from China? Are there not a billion people there, who probably do have computers with default exploitable installations of Linux or Windows that could be used to launch attacks elsewhere? Not everything has to read like a Tom Clancy novel when it comes to international events.

Lately the world's been trying to undermine China who is looking like the next superpower. Western leaders are continually meeting with the Dalai Lama to make them mad. Soon there will be Olympic boycotts.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (2, Insightful)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855954)

Actually China seems to be doing a pretty good job of undermining THEMSELVES at this point, with or without Western help.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (2, Informative)

Otter (3800) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855968)

So what if the IP came from China? Are there not a billion people there, who probably do have computers with default exploitable installations of Linux or Windows that could be used to launch attacks elsewhere?

Exploitable installations of Linux?!? Unpossible!

Anyway, I don't think anyone is claiming that the FBI is taking these claims seriously, least of all the link, which doesn't even mention the FBI. Allyn Brooks-LaSure is free to float any wild theories he wants, but I'd be amazed if it were anything but some idiot script kiddie who was responsible.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (1)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856088)

You won't get any far with playing hardball, even as "superpower". If we talk a little bit more objectively (not OMG China ownz da world trough producing iPods), China can't be superpower without West - but West can be serious power without China. It will ask to cut some bloat and unhealthy hooks on China productions, but it can be done. China, however, are not in such luck here.

Yes, China can stone US with screwing with US dollar, but it is like going total nuclear - no one wants it because after that there will be no one to screw with.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (1)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858260)

I perhaps think you meant the other way around. West cannot be a superpower without China. We have had free-slavery in our colonial confederate days. Our farming, cotton and all were done by slaves for nothing. Our products today manufactured in China is almost done for nothing. Without this edge capitalism cannot happen here. No way in hell I am paying $300 for a 5 port network hub or $50 for a coat hanger.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (1)

Pecisk (688001) | more than 6 years ago | (#22862734)

Sorry, bullshit. When hub would start to reach 100$, laws of market will kick in - corporations will have to find a way to "minimize profits" and find manufacturing places elsewhere. And frankly, there are already tons of talented and willing to work people in Eastern Europe, Africa and India. So, hub will cost a little bit more - so fucking what, they can cost double and people will still buy it.

China actually have done so wrong here creating itself as image of "US of Asia". It is not like it's not happened before. Everything balances out in the end.

If they would manufacture huge percent of West food resources, then we could do the talking.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (4, Interesting)

thermowax (179226) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857300)


I work in the network security field. Probably 70% of the IP space I block at the edge of my network is Chinese. The Pentagon and DoD have had repeated problems with hackers using Chinese IPs in the last two years or so. Make no mistake about it, this effort is tacitly (if not outrightly) being supported by the Chinese government.

Here's a sample- Google "china hacking" for plenty more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-uschina4mar04,1,3559963.story [latimes.com]

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22858972)

In my opinion, even if a nation's government *isn't* actively funding this kind of attack, when they've been running ultra-nationalist propaganda for several decades it's impossible for the officials to deny government involvement when their citizens act on the only information they've ever been allowed to hear.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22862310)

"I work in the network security field. Probably 70% of the IP space I block at the edge of my network is Chinese. The Pentagon and DoD have had repeated problems with hackers using Chinese IPs in the last two years or so. Make no mistake about it, this effort is tacitly (if not outrightly) being supported by the Chinese government."

I wouldn't think a Chinese government supported Hacker would be smart enough to at least know how to cover their own tracks. Now I don't need to worry about them anymore.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (1)

thermowax (179226) | more than 6 years ago | (#22864694)


"I wouldn't think a Chinese government supported Hacker would be smart enough to at least know how to cover their own tracks. Now I don't need to worry about them anymore."

I don't think you said exactly what you meant... Regardless, I'll clarify, because I was in a hurry when I left my initial post and I think some might find the detail interesting.

The 70% I refer to are derived from two primary sources:
1. IPS/IDS detection of incoming hack attempts from Chinese IP space
2. IPS/IDS detection of outgoing iframe accesses to Chinese IP space (browser exploits).

IP packets have to get where they need to go, so the destination address must be valid. The ultimate destination can be obfuscated by relaying through a proxy(ies), but if your home base is immune from prosecution, why bother?

The only other possible conclusion is that China is home to one buttload of machines that have been hacked to provide proxy services for some other destination. This is unlikely.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (3, Interesting)

microbox (704317) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858522)

Lately the world's been trying to undermine China who is looking like the next superpower. Western leaders are continually meeting with the Dalai Lama to make them mad. Soon there will be Olympic boycotts.

Western leaders meet with the Dalai Lama because he is a religious leader to many people, and an advocate of peace. He does have the Nobel Peace Prize. That was not awarded as some anti-chinese conspiracy. Not everything about the Dalai Lama is about China - despite what the Chinese will try to assert. Just another example of how China does it's best to control-control-control *our* dialog. It is extremely ego-centric.

If the Chinese had done *nothing wrong*, then they would have *nothing* to censor, and would not be concerned about managing our perception of them. Their censorship in the Tibet matter speaks volumes.

There must be some cognitive disfunction when we talk about free-thinking. For example, I've seen Chinese people get extremely defensive when you talk about censorship. This country lashes out at the west for ridiculous things, such as talking to people. What type of paranoid person tries to control who other people talk to. Do the Chinese not understand free association?

The west has made many mistakes on human rights issues, and wishes that China would learn from history. So far, the Chinese have been busy revising history to create some sort of false image - a situation analogous to a person who dwells in dreams.

The west doesn't want to undermine China at all. The west just doesn't want to be tarnished by chinese crimes against it's own citizens while it greedily buys chinese goods. All this violence and censorship is entirely unnecessary.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 6 years ago | (#22862196)

There must be some cognitive disfunction when we talk about free-thinking. For example, I've seen Chinese people get extremely defensive when you talk about censorship.
Talk to Americans about propaganda, indoctrination and swearing things to flags in classrooms, and see how defensive they get.

China can prove itself great (1)

microbox (704317) | more than 6 years ago | (#22863696)

While the US certainly has its indoctrination process, they still fundamentally believe in the right of free speech and assembly. It is interesting that china apologists most frequently reach for the "you're bad too" argument. If something happens and you're critical to a person, and then they look at you coldly and say "you're no better than me" - that highlights a pretty poor moral development. Kohlberg's stages of moral development [wikipedia.org] would rank this at stage 2, self-interest orientation. That's one level better than "obedience and punishment orientation".

There is a relationship between morality and harmony, and transitively to happiness. Concerned onlookers see Chinese people suffering so much that they risk there livelihoods to express their bitter dissatisfaction. Other Chinese people are beating them into shape, and in turn, reinforcing the idea of destroying problems, instead of recognizing opportunities. This is a vicious cycle and the suffering is completely unnecessary. Still, it's impossible to talk to most Chinese about it, because they tend to be so defensive, and quickly resort to attacking the misdeeds of others. It seems they don't want some basic intelligence to interfere with their misery.

If you are in doubt about the types of things that Chinese censorship tries to cover up, then it is worth exploring why they'd bother doing it in the first place. But that's dangerous talk within China, isn't that so? But if you just let go of the whole damn thing and you'll be fine. It's simple - you treat each other well, and then there's nothing to cover up, and nobody gets pissed off.

China can best prove itself a great nation by showing that it knows how to live in harmony.

Re:IP was from China, sooo? (1)

swm (171547) | more than 6 years ago | (#22859484)

So what if the IP came from China? Are there not a billion people there [...] ?
No. There are not a billion people in China.
There are maybe 200M people in China.
Plus a billion peasants, and the peasants don't matter.

Not surprising (4, Informative)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855810)

"Save Darfur has been trying to get China, one of Sudan's largest trading partners, to pressure Sudan's government into stopping the mass killings in Darfur's ongoing civil war."

First, Sudan's north-south civil war is a separate matter from the Darfur genocide. Second, it has not only been Save Darfur, but also the entire UN, that has been trying to pressure China to stop funding the genocide. However, China has refused to budge, and likewise have the powers of the world. The only real progress that has been made is for individual states, universities, and organizations to remove all of their investments in companies that do business with the Sudanese government and indirectly profit from the genocide. Sudanese divestment has influenced many companies to pull out of contracts with Sudan and it is definitely having some effect.

For an excellent introduction to China's role in the Darfur genocide, watch Frontline's special for free online [pbs.org] .

To see how much your state congressmen are doing to divest contracts from Sudan, see DarfurScores.Org [darfurscores.org] . The Sudan Divestment Task Force [sudandivestment.org] has info on which states and organizations [sudandivestment.org] are divesting, and which ones are sitting on their hands.

Re:Not surprising (1)

kill-1 (36256) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855850)

For an excellent introduction to the hypocrisy of the "Safe Darfur" movement, read this article:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4717 [globalresearch.ca]

Re:Not surprising (1)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855996)

I see a lot of conjecture and hyperbole but not hypocrisy. Different people advocating action in Darfur have different ideas about what to do, and may even have different motivations, but to label the entire "movement" as having these same motivations is ridiculous.

Re:Not surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856506)

Its easy to critise for hypocracy but the fact is the whole country is fucked. theres:
government factions fighting factions
rebels fighting rebels
government factions fighting rebels
some of the above killing civilians.

Cutting economical ties to Darfur, would probably change the situation. On the good side eventually they'd run out of money for weapons so by forced into peace, however its more likely they run out of food 1st (if you give aid in a war zone chances are that the fighters will end up with it while the civilians starve).
Direct action is probably even worse, even talking about direct action lead to dozens of killings in the area the government thought wed launch an attack through.

What should we do? try and help negotiations? But with no method of getting them to the table, how exactly do we do that?
Given all of this is it surprising that they haven't got a united opinion and contradict themselves.

IMUO (Uninformed) the best thing we could do is secure refuge camps, and protect who have left their homes, while staying the fuck out of the complex war situation (e.g not forming ties with anybody just going in and doing it). But that is a very uninformed opinion.

Re:Not surprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856486)

I got as far as

However, a sizeable few westerners see the Darfur conflict as merely the latest campaign to overthrow an Islamist government by any means necessary
("sizeable few"- I know we have problems with obesity, but really...) and

It appears that there has not been a single article in the Western press that validates the uranium claim. But that does not prove that the uranium claims about Israel aren't true.
(To follow the logic- There hasn't been a single article in the Western press about elephants spontaneously transforming into little chicks, but that doesn't prove that they couldn't?)
and then just had to stop. I've studied the Darfur conflict some and have followed the developments. I've attended a few "Save Darfur" events and even have a "Stop the Genocide" poster in my window, and I'll admit that the rhetoric from the "Save Darfur" campaign can be somewhat polemic. (I assume it is an attempt to attract the attention of an entertainment-craving society) One speaker referred to the Darfur rebels as "freedom fighters" (bringing up visions of "good guys" and "bad guys") and it was interesting to me how when Darfur rebels killed some peace keepers, "Save Darfur" simply switched to passive tense: "some peace keepers were killed..." This conflict is a whole lot more complex than "good guys" versus "bad guys" and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Western interests involved, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. There are people being killed in conflict (no matter what side they are on), there are millions of people who have been displaced and are living in horrible living conditions.

captch: occasion

Re:Not surprising (1)

elrous0 (869638) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855854)

DarfurScores.org needs to get their shit together. According to them my zip (and, in fact, my entire state of South Carolina) doesn't even exist. I hate noble hippies who talk about helping but then half-ass it on the follow-through.

Re:Not surprising (1)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855892)

Blame the hippies when it was probably just some regexp newbie webmaster.

Note on Dr. Ron Paul (1)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855868)

I know how Dr. Paul rates among this crowd, and I myself was a devoted fan, until I found out about his stance on the Darfur genocide and Sudanese divestment. See this thread [slashdot.org] for the details and an informative discussion.

Re:Note on Dr. Ron Paul (1)

Otter (3800) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856078)

1) Paul's position is rather helpful compared to the Green Party, where the Massachusetts party actively supports the Khartoum government against Darfur!

2) That said, I don't understand why you're a "devoted fan" of the rest of the Libertarian platform but are so upset that he's taking a perfectly consistent position on this issue.

Re:Note on Dr. Ron Paul (1)

InvisblePinkUnicorn (1126837) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857482)

"I don't understand why you're a "devoted fan" of the rest of the Libertarian platform"

That would be because I'm not.

"he's taking a perfectly consistent position on this issue."

Which principle is violated if the US government selectively avoiding contracts with companies that supply the genocide?

Re:Note on Dr. Ron Paul (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22858774)

that he's taking a perfectly consistent position

Freedom of association: you can do whatever you'd like, but if you support murderers, we don't want to do business with you, you'll have to find someone else to work for.

Sounds like a perfectly libertarian solution to me.

simple and effective solution (2, Informative)

petes_PoV (912422) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855816)

Sometimes the original emails from the attackers appear to contain press releases from other Tibet campaigners - but when they are opened they install a trojan,

OK, so don't open the emails. Really, does it need the FBI to tell you this?

Better, maybe use a platform that isn't susceptible to Word/OS viruses and trojans.

Better yet, how about some anti-virus software?

Didn't they have this covered? (1)

aleph42 (1082389) | more than 6 years ago | (#22855834)

I thought that China had that covered by offering "bullet proof server" services with -allegdely- the ok from authorities to hack from there. They can then blame hacking from China-ip on users of that service, in a kind or tor-like denyability ( "it's not my traffic, my computer is an exit node" won't hold in court, except if you're a country).
To be honest, I heard this on slashdot; if someone can find the post or the poster elaborate, that would be great.

Suggestion (2, Funny)

Armakuni (1091299) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856064)

'Someone in Beijing is trying to send us a message,' Brooks-LaSure said. What happened to just writing a letter?

Re:Suggestion (1)

Scrameustache (459504) | more than 6 years ago | (#22862270)

'Someone in Beijing is trying to send us a message,' Brooks-LaSure said.

What happened to just writing a letter?
Or leaving a bullet in the mail box on top of a picture of your kids leaving school?

political testing before military testing (3, Interesting)

peter303 (12292) | more than 6 years ago | (#22856296)

Chinese hackers have the blessing of their government to hone their skills against political enemies. Someday these skills will be needed for military enemies.

Re:political testing before military testing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22856558)

Chinese hackers are backed by their govt; they are a division of the PLA (remember the Lion in 1998? He's probably a General now in charge of the cyber division). Hacking is part of their non contact warfare doctrine.

Re:political testing before military testing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22857348)

I do not know if they are backed by the goverment or there are a part of there army until proven.

The posibility exists these are nationalist script kiddies, reacting on everything against there country.

As example I tracked down a Turkish hacker group who profiled themselves as a turkish cyberwarrior group.

http://www.cyber-warrior.org/CW [cyber-warrior.org]

There former page with a mission statement in English was very explicit about their goal: Defending Turkey and the Islam.

http://www.cyber-warrior.org/MisyonEN.Asp [cyber-warrior.org]
(non existant anymore! probably to obviuous for non Turkish reading people)
The group had (has?) a military structured organigram.

So I believe these kind of groups do exist in other countrys

More Western Hypocrisy! (1)

smitingpurpleemu (951712) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857076)

What have the FBI/CIA/Justice Department been doing to Al-Qaeda and other web sites belonging to Muslim extremists? Possibly infiltrating and shutting them down?

The Western/American hypocrisy is piling up, nice and thick.

Re:More Western Hypocrisy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22858378)

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Re:More Western Hypocrisy! (1)

carnivorouscow (1255116) | more than 6 years ago | (#22858906)

Al-Qaeda plans and executes attacks on civilians. The Save Darfur Coalition is trying stop attacks on civilians. Which one could be classified as an enemy of humanity? There's a lot of Western hypocrisy out there but moral relativism will only carry an argument so far.

hate to point out the obvious but (4, Informative)

confused one (671304) | more than 6 years ago | (#22857218)

there are huge botnets in China. Just because the IP address was Chinese does not prove China is the origin of the attack.

Re:hate to point out the obvious but (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | more than 6 years ago | (#22863846)

Doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm sure most of the Windows XP installations are from a pirated source including other software (Adobe, AutoCAD, MS Office...etc). Hell, even their native instant messenger QQ is craptastic.

China's network is a dirty filthy slime pit. So many viri and botnets infest it, i'm sure it's their #2 cause of bandwidth consumption closely behind BitTorrent traffic. Oh, and did I mention their DNS replication is FUBAR!. It'll take years to clean it up even if all ISPs banded togeather to start working on a solution.

Read wikipedia! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22860504)

guys, if you're reading this site, you're not idiots. go read wikipedia to see the history of Tibet! if you're not hopelessly brainwashed by all the American propaganda, you'll see the continuing encrouchment upon Tibet by the British and American Empires (plus the now defunct Russian Empire). Even as a little as 50 years, ago, the US was actively funding guerilla warfare in Tibet, trying to steal it from China. And now, it's more than a little obvious that the US is behind the Dalai Lama in actively creating violent unreset in Tibet, in its renewed attempt to separate a large piece of territory from its number one rival. Perhaps the US can see the Iraq invasion is drawing to a conclusion and it's setting the stage for the next war. Who knows what kind of lying propaganda it's going to come up with this time as an excuse to invade China - "weapons of mass destruction" perhaps?

Moreover, Tibet considered itself part of China even before the North American continent was invaded and illegally occupied by the British and European colonists who brutally slaughtered the natives into near extinction. I would challenge anyone who cries "free Tibet" to firstly protest against the occupation of the North American continent (and Australia while you're at it), and after the greater crimes have been addressed, you may begin to complain about the Tibeten situation.

Just block the whole lot of them (1)

jafiwam (310805) | more than 6 years ago | (#22861140)

Here's the current list of IPs. I stuck the entire country on the "drop all packets" list a while back on some of my servers and never looked back. AND got a significant reduction in the random crap that tried to break into my stuff.

http://www.apnic.net/apnic-bin/ipv4-by-country.pl?country=cn [apnic.net]

There never was any useful traffic from there for what I am doing, so no loss.
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