Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

A Screenshot Review of KDE 4

Zonk posted more than 6 years ago | from the who-doesn't-like-a-little-eye-candy dept.

KDE 274

billybob2 writes "PolishLinux.org has an extensive screenshot review and commentary on the development version of the Free and Open Source KDE desktop. Highlights include the ability to run any desktop applet prepared for Mac OS X inside Plasma, on-the-fly annotation and rating of files from within the Dolphin file manager. It also has an improved GUI for the Amarok music player, flexible 3D eye candy configuration in KWin, and improved support for both accessing digital cameras via the Solid hardware layer and the DigiKam photo manager."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

ok... (0, Flamebait)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22926978)

KDE4 has been out since 1/11..

Re:ok... (3, Interesting)

Mordok-DestroyerOfWo (1000167) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927098)

I tried it and quickly switched back to Gnome. I have a session chock full of eye-candy and effects to show people what Linux can do. But when it comes down I'm a minimalist and tend to turn the fluff off to save my battery life and to get all of the cycles I can when I'm rendering. That said I do like the leaps and bounds that KDE has been taking to modernize itself.

Re:ok... (4, Informative)

karbonKid (902236) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927174)

If you want a lightweight, minimalist windowmanager, why on earth would you use GNOME? It has, admittedly, come on in leaps and bounds in terms of speed, but there are much more lightweight and 'minimalist' alternatives available, many of which I personally think look a lot nicer too - Fluxbox is great imho, or XFCE if you still want a little more eyecandy...

Re:ok... (0, Offtopic)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927256)

XFCE is what I use.. my desktop environment loads blazing fast.

Re:ok... (1)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927332)

XFCE is what I use.. my desktop environment loads blazing fast.

My problem with it is the lack of a decent printer configuration tool and its ugliness. It looks damn ugly!

Re:ok... (1)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927380)

Nah, I have it skinned to look better than any Gnome setup I've ever seen. Mine looks sort of like this [xfce.org] with the striped toolbars and transparency, but it's themed to look like Human.

Re:ok... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927348)

Yeah, I use Xfce too, but it is awfully tempting to switch...

Re:ok... (4, Interesting)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927686)

Minimalist? What do you mean by that?

The KDE 4 design is considerably cleaner than KDE 3. It uses less memory, and runs faster, and when KDE 4.1 hits with QT 4.4, it should improve significantly again. There is a known issue with QT 4.3 that forces some hackery in screen rendering that is resolved in QT 4.4

I'm not sure how Gnome is more minimalist, unless you mean fewer options and features. Then again, I'm not sure why people don't like having choice.

Re:ok... (5, Informative)

cheater512 (783349) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927858)

Just yesterday I tested my laptop (Pentium 3, 512mb ram) vs a Turion laptop with a gig of ram.

Mine started KDE 4 far faster than KDE 3 on the superior computer.

Re:ok... (2, Insightful)

routerl (976394) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927866)

I'm not sure how Gnome is more minimalist, unless you mean fewer options and features. Then again, I'm not sure why people don't like having choice.


Because more choice is not always better. Gnome does what I need it to do, and is as customizable as I need it to be. Given that, my pre-existing comfort with gnome, and my never having used KDE for any extended period of time, I have no desire or need to switch. And this is independent of whatever advantages KDE might have, when it comes to what you need it for.

Re:ok... (1)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928280)

i'm curious how it performs compared to xfce? KDE was dog when i tried 3, but it was hellish nice to look at.

Re:ok... (5, Informative)

jeffreymsmith (579150) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927112)

The review is (was) about the upcoming release of KDE 4.1.

As the KDE people are often quick to point out, the release back in January was KDE 4.0--the first of many "KDE4" releases.

The first public alpha, you mean. (1)

Iowan41 (1139959) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927982)

Is it even usable yet?

Grapes (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927444)

I want those grapes.... yummy

Re:Grapes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22928034)

Don't worry -- they're sour anyway.

Poor server (1, Informative)

DaveV1.0 (203135) | more than 6 years ago | (#22926980)

It's a smoldering ruin and not a single post.

Seems to be up now. (4, Informative)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927040)

But here's the coral cache link [nyud.net] to save their server...

Re:Seems to be up now. (1)

spacefiddle (620205) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927066)

nyud.net = smoldering ruin in T-minus 5, 4, 3...

Re:Seems to be up now. (1)

TheSpengo (1148351) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927488)

Google cache works too.

Re:Seems to be up now. (-1, Flamebait)

rampant mac (561036) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927190)

Server's dead to me with only 9 comments showing.

I'm not a hard core Linux user (stopped using it some time in 2002, for that "other" OS. No, not that one, the other one. No, the one with the pretty eye candy and egomaniac boss running the show. No! The _OTHER_ Steve. Yes, the non-sweaty one).

Anyway - Why does it look like I ate Mac OS X Leopard and Windows Vista only crap out something like this? I know, I know, Windows users switching over will feel more comfortable in an environment closely resembling the operating system they switched from, but... The resemblances are downright creepy.

I'd like to see some originality, but once again OSS disappoints.

fvwm = Win95 back in the day, now more like Mac OS.
Windowmaker = OpenStep, NextStep
KDE = Windows Vista / Mac OS
Gnome = More like Mac OS (with Windows thrown in for the heck of it)

Re:Seems to be up now. (5, Insightful)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927316)

I'd like to see some originality, but once again OSS disappoints.

If you want to see where OS X has borrowed from OSS, simply look at spaces (predated by Virtual Desktops), Dashboard (predated by Konfabulator), Spotlight (predated by Beagle), etc.

I'd like to see some OS X fanboys who have a clue about the way OS development works; hint: all the majors copy concepts from each other & rarely come up with original features (they mostly come from research projects), but once again, Apple fanboy disappoints.

Re:Seems to be up now. (0, Flamebait)

rampant mac (561036) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927446)

"If you want to see where OS X has borrowed from OSS, simply look at spaces (predated by Virtual Desktops), Dashboard (predated by Konfabulator), Spotlight (predated by Beagle), etc."


Sigh, I keep seeing this time and time again. Spaces? That's a given and a total rip off, I'll agree. But, "Dashboard (predated by Konfabulator)" ... I seem to remember 1984, which might be a little bit before your time. They both seem to look a little bit like Desk Accessories [wikipedia.org] don'tyathink?

And Beagle? Apple hired Dominic Giampaolo in early 2002, who knows if he started working on Spotlight right from the get-go?

Re:Seems to be up now. (4, Informative)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927572)

But, "Dashboard (predated by Konfabulator)" ... I seem to remember 1984, which might be a little bit before your time. They both seem to look a little bit like Desk Accessories don'tyathink?

No. I don't think Dashboard is anything like Desk Accessories - the only similarity between the two is that they're both small apps.

And Beagle? Apple hired Dominic Giampaolo in early 2002, who knows if he started working on Spotlight right from the get-go?

Oh FFS. Do you think you're adding anything to your case by speculating that Apple may have been developing Spotlight prior to Beagle's first alpha?

Even if you had concrete evidence rather than pointless speculation, you'd still not have shown Apple to be the innovator - how about this [retrosoftware.net] from 1987.

Re:Seems to be up now. (4, Informative)

IntlHarvester (11985) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928020)

Desk Accessories were a particular kludge because the Mac couldn't multitask. The idea of quickly pulling up a calculator or notepad wasn't invented by Apple.

Re:Seems to be up now. (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22928060)

Sigh, I keep seeing this time and time again. Spaces? That's a given and a total rip off, I'll agree. But, "Dashboard (predated by Konfabulator)" ... I seem to remember 1984, which might be a little bit before your time. They both seem to look a little bit like Desk Accessories don'tyathink?
And time and time again, Apple apologists keep bringing up Desk Accessories as if it's basically the same thing as Konfabulator/Dashboard. (It's not.) Desk Accessories was a hack to get quasi-multitasking (special small apps only) in a singletasking OS (early Mac OS). Desk Accessories was phased out when Mac OS became a multitasking OS because this hack was no longer needed.

OTOH, Konfabulator and Dashboard are basically the same freakin' thing. They're both a runtime engine for creating/running markup-based (e.g. XML, HTML) mini-programs (widgets) with JavaScript code. The format for creating widgets is open and users can create their own widgets which they can share on Konfabulator/Dashboard widget sites.

Dashboard was so much different (and more significant) than Desk Accessories that Steve Jobs introduced Dashboard at the World Wide Developers Conference. Many developers in attendence were confused because Jobs seemed to be describing Konfabulator, which already existed and Jobs pretended didn't exist.

Re:Seems to be up now. (4, Funny)

dh003i (203189) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927658)

No, you're wrong! Apple invented everything good and pure in the OS world. They invented the GUI, not Xerox. And they invented computer cases with front vents to provide for better cooling, not companies in the server market, or even (gasp!) Gateway in 2001 with their old computers. Apple also invented hot-swapping -- err, no, it's called slide-in storage. Apple invented memory riser cards. Apple invented columnar file-browsing. And Apple invented the dock. It's all about Apple, Apple, Apple. ;-)

Re:Seems to be up now. (1)

iminplaya (723125) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928132)

They invented the GUI, not Xerox.

"I was the Walrus - Paul wasn't the Walrus! I was just saying that to be nice, but I was actually the Walrus!"

Re:Seems to be up now. (-1, Flamebait)

coleridge78 (603449) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927974)

Look, this is simple.

Konfabulator isn't that similar to Dashboard. Dashboard, in fact, is leaps past it. If you're going to claim that Dashboard is a ripoff of Konfabulator, then it's utterly disingenuous to claim that K-ator is not a "ripoff" of Desk Accessories in exactly the same sense. To anyone with a functioning brain, K-ator is much more similar to Desk Accessories than to Dashboard. If you disagree, I invite you to explain why rather than trotting out troll talking points.

And Spotlight a ripoff of Beagle? A laughable, intentional lie. Again, if those two are similar enough to call Spotlight a "ripoff", then Beagle is a ripoff of every indexed search project since 1935.

Get real. Put up some facts, or take a hike.

Re:Seems to be up now. (4, Interesting)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928208)

If you're going to claim that Dashboard is a ripoff of Konfabulator,

No, I didn't claim that - I said Konfabulator predates Dashboard.

then it's utterly disingenuous to claim that K-ator is not a "ripoff" of Desk Accessories in exactly the same sense. To anyone with a functioning brain, K-ator is much more similar to Desk Accessories than to Dashboard. If you disagree, I invite you to explain why rather than trotting out troll talking points.

Konfabulator could fetch information from a network & was easy to develop for, but again - I don't claim that anything's ripping off anything.

And Spotlight a ripoff of Beagle? A laughable, intentional lie. Again, if those two are similar enough to call Spotlight a "ripoff", then Beagle is a ripoff of every indexed search project since 1935.

But I do think Beagle has borrowed from every indexed search project since 1935 - I even said (in the post you're replying to): "

all the majors [os makers] copy concepts from each other & rarely come up with original features (they mostly come from research projects)"
Sorry fanboy. You're wrong.

Re:Seems to be up now. (1)

ruyon (660897) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928228)

Just nitpicking, but Konfabulator was a shareware, not OSS. Spotlight was predated by Sherlock 2 which was released as a part of Mac OS 8.5, years before beagle's 0.0.0 release.


I agree with your point, Apple 'borrows' ideas and code from anywhere regardless of their origins, but at least get the facts straight and don't guess if you really don't know. It only undermines your claim.

and Apple usually does it right more often than others when it comes to UI.

You can call me an Apple fanboy.

Re:Seems to be up now. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927680)

KDE predates OSX and that Vista thing, and was originally supposed to look like CDE.
fvwm tried to be a enhanced free version of mwm.

I dislike the UI of all versions of Windows and OSX. I don't care much for GNOME, and KDE has lost its appeal.
I like XFCE. If I could run XFCE on OSX, then I may consider booting my mac mini into osx instead of Linux.
If XFCE ran on Windows, and Windows had a real terminal program instead of the Win3.1 dos boxes, then perhaps I could use it without the urge to vomit.

Have a nice day.

Re:Seems to be up now. (1)

dosius (230542) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927890)

You prolly *can* run xfce on OSX. Might need to compile it though.

-uso.

Unoriginal? (4, Insightful)

Enderandrew (866215) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927702)

Since when did Mac OS and Windows have stuff like Sonnet, Strigi/Nepomuk, Solid, Plasma, Decibel, etc?

Oh wait, they didn't.

It really irks me when people look at a window decoration, and assume that fully encompasses the work of KDE 4.

CDE(1993) like toolbar: KDE, XFCE, OSX (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927746)

Have a look at CDE. No further comment required.

Re:Poor sig (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927186)

"Chances are you are an asshole and don't know it."

Oh, I know I am, and your sig suggests that you're an arrogant one as well.

Welcome to Slashdot brother...

Re:Poor server (1)

cgenman (325138) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928284)

Does anyone else find this image ironic?

http://www.chriscanfield.net/Offsite/slashdoterror.gif [chriscanfield.net]

It's like heading out on a romantic interlude while whispering "my wife will never find us here." This page simply could not have been served, by basic comedy rules of the universe.

"Error establishing a database connection" (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22926988)

That is the oddest screenshot I have ever seen. Is the applet that it is running designed to fail to establish a database connection?

Re:"Error establishing a database connection" (0, Redundant)

crowbarsarefornerdyg (1021537) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927006)

Maybe the server runs on Windows? *ducks*

Re:"Error establishing a database connection" (1)

gardyloo (512791) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927034)

Now that KDE4 runs on Windows too, I don't see why you have to *duck* :)

slashdotted already (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927000)

before any comments even

Re:slashdotted already (3, Funny)

DJCacophony (832334) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928164)

That's okay, here's a copy of the article text:









Expecting more.. (1)

LingNoi (1066278) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927004)

...from the first April 1st news post on Slashdot this year..

Re:Expecting more.. (1)

Brian Gordon (987471) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927028)

3 more hours until 4/1 sweeps across America..

Re:Expecting more.. (1)

Kelson (129150) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927128)

Yeah, but in the past they've started at midnight GMT.

Remember OMG Ponies?

Re:Expecting more.. (1)

T-Bone-T (1048702) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927368)

That was really funny! I definitely remember that!

Re:Expecting more.. (1)

Scottar (969033) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927664)

I don't know if I can handle that again. If this years topic is Lolcats then I'm going to have to top myself

Re:Expecting more.. (1)

r_jensen11 (598210) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927946)

I don't know if I can handle that again. If this years topic is Lolcats then I'm going to have to top myself
No need to worry. I'm predicting a resurgance of goatse

There's still hope (1, Funny)

alx5000 (896642) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927060)

I hope PolishLinux.org has an extensive backup server, too. And a fire extinguisher or two.

Dashboard Support (4, Interesting)

MBCook (132727) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927072)

I've recently been able to do some widget development for OS X (nothing complex, just some HTML, JS, and AJAX calls). It's a neat little environment but the error reporting left a lot to be desired.

That said, I really appreciate the ability to open Dashboard widgets in KDE. The interface isn't that magical, and except for the ability to call native code shouldn't pose much of a problem for the developers. I was wondering if they were going to do something like this and I'm glad they have.

The little widget I developed could be used by users of one of our applications. I think a fair number of them would like it. For various reasons, 30% of the users of this application are using Macs, so that doesn't pose a problem. But when I pitched the idea (with a mostly complete widget) to my superiors they weren't that interested. I was basically told "that's quite neat, but it needs to work on Windows."

Ignoring my minor "let Mac users have something first" attitude, there is a very serious problem with providing the Widget on Windows. I can't (reasonably). I researched the options and here is what I found.

  1. Vista Gadget - Only works on Vista, about 20% of our users... and I don't have a copy of Vista to develop on
  2. Google Widget - Depending on how you write it, works on Google desktop or only Google Homepage (and other sites). Google Desktop runs on Windows, OS X, and (I think) Linux
  3. Yahoo! Widget - Used to be Konfabulator. Runs on Windows and OS X.

That list ignores whatever GNOME uses, and the 5-10 smaller engines that very few people use. Who knows how many people use Google Desktop or Yahoo! Widgets. None of the widgets developed on these systems works with any of the other system. Even if the widget is a simple as a "Hello, world" HTML file and image(s), the markup between Dashboard and Google is quite different. From the quick look I put into it, the same thing is true with Vista and Yahoo!. Google Desktop widgets can be loaded into the Dashboard, if you have Google Desktop installed on your Mac, because it performs some kind of translation.

So I can't develop a widget. The only user base I can promise is Vista. That's a big headache and only 2/3s the side of the Mac users we know of. Asking users to go install Google Desktop or Yahoo! Widgets just to be able to view our little widget is a little tough. Making the application native would take quite a bit of time. Integration for a custom Google homepage is probably the best option for us, but still not worth it due to the inability to predict the number of people who would actually use it.

So the project (which was just a side project of mine) is basically dead. Unless they decide that providing the widget to only Mac users (I find this very unlikely), the time isn't judged to be worth it (and I don't blame them). Until Vista takes over (probably by this time next year due to MS phasing out XP sales to OEMs) there are just too many widget engines. Targeting any decent sized group of users is nearly impossible. It's a quirk of our market that Macs have the market share they do.

This kind of consolidation is a very nice thing. As a KDE user, instantly getting so many widgets available (since outside of native code and possibly running shell commands, there shouldn't be porting) is a very nice thing.

Re:Dashboard Support (1)

dreamchaser (49529) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927122)

Hmmm, it would be great to have an OSS widget engine that ran on Windows, OS X, and Linux. I wish I had more time to code these days.

Re:Dashboard Support (4, Interesting)

MBCook (132727) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927204)

At this point, that's basically what WebKit is. If someone just makes a Windows front end, we'll be set. Getting Google to adopt it for Google Desktop would be great, but at this point I find that unlikely due to momentum. Dashboard is just little Safari windows, hiding things like the title bar, with a special Javascript object to let you do things like set preferences, flip sides, and know when your widget is shown.

This this version of KDE is supposed to be able to be compiled and run on Window much easier than the giant mess that used to be necessary (my understanding is that this is due mostly to QT4), we may even be most of the way there. All that is needed is to get the users. Being able to say "use Apple Dashboard widgets" would be a major plus in getting the users.

If it wouldn't cut into one of Apple's argued advantages, they would probably release Dashboard for Windows.

But as it stands, there doesn't seem to be any way develop a widget and have it run on any decent fraction of the Windows computers out there. Like it or not, that's a large market.

Re:Dashboard Support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927402)

Can't Opera do that? What about Firefox or XUL Runner (SVG transparency, HTML5, and stuff like that)

Re:Dashboard Support (1)

michaelbuddy (751237) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927432)

just out of curiosity on widgets, has anyone created, 1. a TV Card playing widget that will play a cable TV coax coming into the video TV card, and 2. a ticker that could scroll any kind of information, such as RSS feeds where the headlines scroll left to right, top to bottom, or other data.

if not, would it be a nightmare to program these?

Re:Dashboard Support (1)

Excelsior (164338) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927654)

Sounds to me like you might be interested in Netvibes' Universal Widget API [netvibes.com] . It allows you to write widgets that will work on NetVibes (of course), Mac, Windows Vista, Windows Live, iGoogle, iPhone/IPod Touch, Opera, and Yahoo Widgets (not the same as My Yahoo). I just found out about it today, so I haven't had a chance to try it out, but I will be trying it soon.

KDE windows port? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927990)

Isn't KDE being ported to Windows?

Re:Dashboard Support (1)

zsau (266209) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928048)

I hate it when people add superfluous or unnecessary words to their posts. That said, it makes it very annoying to have to read "that said" in hundreds of posts on Slashdot where it adds nothing. That said, it's superfluous because of course having said that, you've said it! In other words, I can tell you've said something by the fact that you've said it; you don't need to say "that said".

That said, "that said" can occasionally be useful when you're contradicting an earlier point. But it shouldn't be the usual way to do that, because it's way too overused and has lost all meaning, at least here on Slashdot.

That said, I've used it myself in that context. I immediately said ten "Hail Marys" and five "Our Fathers" to make up for the sin.

NYUD mirror (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927094)

NYUD.net mirror [nyud.net] (if it ever responds). By the way, I've seen screenshots of Amarok [jarzebski.pl] and it looks worse than Firefox 3's back/forward keyhole. Amarok has this big swooping curve in the menu bar like the old Quicktime app... but it's at the top of the screen and it looks completely out of place. Firefox 3 keyhole is another ugly default. I could never hit the back button in Firefox 1 or 2 but now with Firefox 3s extra 10 pixels the world it's so much easier... no more dead-ends on the web for me!

Impressive... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927144)

I don't know about KDE4 but the slashdotted tag [ http://linux.slashdot.org/tags/slashdotted [slashdot.org] ]tells us how many sites we hosed, how many nights worth of sysadmin sleep deprivation we caused - so far between May 07 and Mar 08 - the number is impressive 117. (I am sure some fellow /.er will go through the pain of actually counting all the links even if it was just to prove a AC wrong :) .

Great, when is it actually going to be useable? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927150)

It's starting to look good. When is the release for users going to be available? I understand KDE4 has been released, but I've heard it's really only for developers. Is 4.1 supposed to be for users, or is that the beta-user build? Should I wait for 4.2, or is that KDE codespeak for "almost nearly ready for every-other-day use"? When is the final-final release going to be ready? How will I know?

KDE version numbering is confusing.

Re:Great, when is it actually going to be useable? (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927240)

My understanding is, the "release" was of the underlying tech -- things like KDElib, QT4, etc.

I have no idea when the actual K Desktop Environment is due, though I'll probably be switching to the experimental Hardy KDE/4 version when Hardy itself is released. Mainly, I can't wait for Konqueror to not crash several times a day, and I suspect Webkit will help with that.

Re:Great, when is it actually going to be useable? (1)

DarkProphet (114727) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927782)

Just, curious, because its not clear from your post -- What version of KDE are you running in which Konq crashes on you? I run Kunbuntu 7.10 and have never had any official KDE apps die on me. Are you running KDE 4.0 or the prereleases or something?

PlaySkool is Kool . . . if you're FIVE !! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927194)



PlaySkool is Kool . . . if you're FIVE !! Give me Winders any day. Gahd !! Break my balls !! Build a wall around that !!

Tragedy Strikes PolishLinux.Org Admin Team (1)

Skeetskeetskeet (906997) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927208)

When they heard Slashdot was using them as part of their annual April Fool's joke, they all committed mass suicide by jumping out of the basement window.

Re:Tragedy Strikes PolishLinux.Org Admin Team (1)

Rod Beauvex (832040) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927274)

Wait, what?

Shouldn't they be outside jumping into the basement window?

What was that wooshing noise?

Re:Tragedy Strikes PolishLinux.Org Admin Team (1)

pugugly (152978) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927278)

Thank God I wasn't the only one going "There's a bad joke there just begging to be made" - {G}

Pug

This is especially interesting (3, Interesting)

XNine (1009883) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927238)

to us OS X users. A free OS with these abilities really begs that Linux be given another look by the general public for a main desktop (and with the announcement of Adobe coming to the Linux arena, this just emboldens it's abilities). Unfortunately, until audio/video and graphics apps become powerhouses on the Linux platform, I'm afraid OS X will remain my main OS of choice.

Re:This is especially interesting (3, Informative)

theLime (4908) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928262)

I think you would be very, very surprised at the state of Linux pro audio (esp. Ardour.) Graphics apps (Gimp, Inkscape, Maya, etc) have been very mature for several years. Unless you need to stay with your current programs (and play Games For Windows(TM),) Linux is ready for you now.

I've been running -dev (3, Informative)

xrayspx (13127) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927270)

It's still way too unstable for me day to day, but it's tempting enough to keep trying anyway. 4.0.66 lasted a week before I fired it this morning. My main problems are with multi-head related (it really doesn't work very well from my and others experience, especially non-Xinerama multihead), but it keeps improving. Good work KDE Team

Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (2, Insightful)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927314)

I see KDE as a very good, highly configurable and modern desktop environment but still wonder why it is not yet the desktop environment of choice for the "major" distros. Why? Is is because it is mainly European based and all the so called major distros are American based? I hope not.

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927466)

I think that it has a lot to do with the fact that when KDE was getting started, Qt wasn't "free." GNOME was started to provide a fully-free alternative, is official GNU software, and attracted the support of companies like Red Hat because they could work with it without having to pay royalties.

KDE is the BSD of Desktops.

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (1)

toejam13 (958243) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927672)

That is exactly the reason.

Even though KDE is, IMHO, better than GNOME, issues surrounding the license model of Qt kept it from being wholly adopted by all parties. As a result, a GNU version came about.

This is not unlike how GNU/Linux came to be due to the lawsuit surrounding BSD/OS from BSDi.

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22928218)

No, linux came about because Linus never heard about 386BSD until it was too late.

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927516)

  • Because QT was non-free in older versions
  • Because previous versions were bloated and slow
  • Stinks of Windows XP gone bad...
  • Really, really bad configuration engine..
  • Did I mention slow?

KDE isn't the default on Debian based distros (2, Insightful)

Gazzonyx (982402) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927536)

Slackware proper only ships with KDE (and fluxbox, and XFCE, IIRC - they're in the 'extras' discs). You can get Gnome on Slackware via other projects, but Slackware doesn't support Gnome. So, that's one distro that is straight out of the box KDE. In fact, that's why KDE is my favorite desktop environment; Slackware was my first distro, and I just got used to it.

Although, I do appreciate Gnome for what it is, but it just doesn't feel as familiar as KDE. So, yeah, the main distros these days are debian derived and that's why Gnome is dominant, IMHO. Whatever a user is subjected to first, they'll find to be more comfortable with.

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (4, Informative)

dbcad7 (771464) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927576)

Distrowatch.. Top 10

Ubuntu...................Gnome
PCLinux..................KDE
Suse.....................Your Choice at install
Fedora...................Gnome
Mint.......................Gnome
Mandriva.................KDE
Sabayon..................KDE
Debian....................Gnome
Damn Samll.............Joes Window Manager
Mepis.......................KDE

So default installs... 4 with gnome, 4 with KDE, 1 your choice... and of course on any of these you can add the other manager anyway.. I don't see any conspiracy against KDE... people use what they want.. There is Kubuntu, same people, but it's not in the top 10 (it's 15th).. If done right, I am sure it's a great window manager.. My experiences with it have been ok, but I prefer gnome.. BTW gnome can be done wrong too.. I tried an alpha release of Suse with gnome, and hated their menu.

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (2, Informative)

Vertigo Acid (1164963) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928274)

Where are you getting that top 10 list from?
From http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major [distrowatch.com]

Ubuntu (Gnome, although you might argue that since kubuntu is official and not really a fork, that this could be either)
openSUSE (either)
Fedora (Gnome)
Debian (Gnome)
Mandriva (KDE)
PCLinuxOS (KDE)
MEPIS (KDE)
KNOPPIX (KDE)
Slackware (KDE)
Gentoo (either, neither. same with sabayon)
FreeBSD (not a linux distro, I know. anyway, either, neither)

So, conservatively, I see 3 Gnome, 2 either, and 5 KDE

Re:Why is KDE still not the mainstream? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22928222)

Besides the lingering effects of KDE's former nonfreeness, I think many Linux users care a lot about the "mainstream" success of Linux. People who have invested a lot of effort into becoming Linux adepts naturally want to incorporate Linux as a major positive aspect of their social identity. This is a real puzzle.

As a programmer and Linux nerd I have put a lot of thought into this :-)

I don't think it can be done, but there are two ways to try. They both sound pretty stupid, but keep the following in mind:
  • People don't think straight when they're teenagers, especially about their relations with other people.
  • Linux nerds tend to be socially even more stupid than regular teenagers. (I said "nerd," this this is tautological.)
  • For Linux nerds, the teenage years continue until the age of 25 or so. (Maybe I'm just projecting.)


So, with that in mind, there are two major ways to try.

First, you can regard Linux as a powerful tool for the initiated. Linux makes you powerful, and you have to be smart to master Linux. This would not bias you towards either KDE or GNOME, but it might tilt you towards a leet-looking window manager-based environment such as Enlightenment. This has the advantage of having a kernel of truth, but it has the disadvantage that it only works within your peer group and inside your own head. This does not raise your status anywhere else. From the point of view of a young nerd who gazes longingly across the chasm separating him from "real" people, and looking with mild disgust at the plump, pimply, faintly mustachioed people of the same or opposite sex on his or her side of the divide, this approach is completely useless.

Second, you can regard Linux as a force that will shake up the world and become a major part of everyone's life. You understand these things; you saw the writing on the wall; you jumped confidently on the Linux bandwagon while everyone else pooh-poohed it, and soon you will be vindicated as a master of the new world order. Of course, as you gaze longingly across the chasm, you realize that nobody IRL gives a shit about the server market, and your clever plan (wishful fantasy?) depends the success of Linux on the consumer desktop. So you fight for the consumer desktop, and you try to get people to try it, and for those purposes you promote the user-friendly Linux desktop made by usability experts for Mom and Pop. You use GNOME.

None of it ever pans out, of course, but a few years later it doesn't really matter anyway. The faintly mustachioed people have lost weight, cleared up their skin, and started shaving. You realize that you can finally let go of your fear of wedgies and other public humiliations imposed by third parties. (Just like everyone else, you only have to worry about the first two parties.) You make enough money to buy nice dinners for the smooth-cheeked person who sleeps next to you, and you have plenty left over to build quad-core boxes for your Netflix Prize weekend dilettantism. All is well.

(Personally, I'm not passionate about KDE. I'm with KDE just because KDE and I get along. I felt the same about GNOME, but we kept having these awful fights. I wanted to try something, and it felt like I wasn't respecting its usability, and I'd be like, "I don't give a damn about your usability. Why can't you be less uptight? KDE was never like this," and it was like, "You're a monster! I'm leaving you!" and I was like, "Fine!" Then one day I realized KDE was exactly the same except without the fighting. Anyway, even though KDE is very accomodating and efficient and cooks a nice lasagna, it doesn't really excite me. Every time I see another guy using Enlightenment, the danger calls to me... unwholesomely lean, tats all over -- a little bit scary, and I always look for tracks, even though I know they won't be there. When it catches me staring and fixes me with that neglected, wild look in its eyes, I start breathing fast and deep, and I think back to my younger days when I tried out two or three window managers at the same time... wasn't so hard, they never knew... but I just grit my teeth, look away, and tell myself that in twenty years I won't care about anything except the lasagna.)

Up again! (1)

kernowyon (1257174) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927328)

The site seems to have recovered from the initial onslaught of /.ers now. Some nice screenies - KDE4.x certainly looks good. However, perhaps I am one of a minority, but I prefer my computing power to be used for something other than eye candy. I don't run Compiz (well, maybe just to impress the odd Windows user!) and removed Dolphin and the searchy thing straight away on my KDE. Cue the good old KDE vs Gnome arguments, with the XFCE/Fluxbox brigade picking away in the background any minute now. Wonder what those who are stuck with Windows only make of all this? Personally, I run KDE on my day to day machines, with XFCE and Fluxbox on a couple of other older boxes, plus of course a command line only server. We should be grateful that we have the choice in Linux to choose rather than argue which desktop environment is teh best! Each has its advantages and disadvantages - try them all and pick which you prefer.

Oh nos: Appleface! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927416)

I keep looking for a Linux distro to use instead of Windows on my laptop. I'm too picky. The screenshots tell me I can't use KDE4 because the windows look so much like Mac interface windows, and using OSX at work has lead me to associate that visual style with the laggy, clunky OSX interface.

What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (2, Interesting)

NitroWolf (72977) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927448)

Maybe it's just me... but is anyone else really tired of the Fisher-Price trending in desktop operating systems.

It started with Windows XP, but it wasn't *too* bad... but then Gnome showed up with full blown Fisher-Pricey-ness. KDE has always been halfway there, and with KDE 4, it looks like they have completed their journey. OS/X showed up to the party with the Teddy Ruxpin of desktop graphics. A little more sophisticated, but still clearly for kids.

So, we have all the major operating systems/window managers fully in the Fisher-Price camp. Clearly this is what the consumer wants (or is it?) - but what I don't understand is why. Am I the only person who wants my OS Desktop to look "cool" and not "cute" right out of the box? I realize "cool" (and "cute") is subjective, but I think some themes that cater to both camps out of the box would be a welcome addition.

Now, I know Gnome does not have anything of which I speak, and KDE 3 does not. I don't know about OS/X, but I've never seen a "stock" theme for OS/X that looks like something a working person would use, just the Fisher-Price-esque desktop.

I realize there are third party applications and themes to correct this... but I have yet to find something I like; They always look like something a teenager designed or something a kid would use. I have absolutely no doubt something "cool" and "utilitarian" is out there, but I have yet to find it.

The whole point of my post, though, is why the Fisher-Price trend in Desktops? What is so appealing about making the desktop look like a toy?

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (3, Funny)

Hal_Porter (817932) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927548)

So, we have all the major operating systems/window managers fully in the Fisher-Price camp.
Use FreeDOS. I use it on my 8GB USB flash disk, and I still have 7.999GB free.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

rtb61 (674572) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927580)

You just have to adapt to the modern market. The never grow up, teenagers for the rest of your life market. Although that is technically a mass media market, buy everything now it and must look good before being good, it still will survive for some time to come before being supplanted with the new independent media market.

So it should eventually shift back to, no matter how good it looks if it don't function right it sucks and the minimalists life style, only have what you need, work to live don't live to work, if you were happy with out it yesterday, chances are you would be happy with out it tomorrow.

That minimalism then reflects in a neat clean interface and keeping it simple and relevant.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (4, Funny)

zullnero (833754) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927606)

Make your desktop manager. Seriously, there's a market for a desktop manager where all applications are bound to an elaborate set of keystrokes, and if you mess up and get the keys out of sequence, an image of Denis Leary pops up out of the desktop and glares at you like you're an idiot. If you fail a login to your encrypted volume, your background turns into a graphical sound wave representation of Sam Kinison screaming. In fact, I think a considerable amount of that is going into the next Emacs rev.

Desktop managers are designed and made for people who can't use command lines and want something graphically cute. They are designed by people whose minds work in ways that most real engineers can't fully understand. They are designed by the same folks that really want their computer to match the color scheme of the rest of their office, as well as reflect the color that they best associate themselves with.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

GumphMaster (772693) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927692)

Ratpoison [nongnu.org] is on the way there

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

duck0 (1073338) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927808)

And pwm and later ion [modeemi.fi] has been there for a long time. I ran pwm when I still had a PC laptop, to my amusement when any of my friends tried to use it.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

GumphMaster (772693) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927678)

Maybe it's just me... but is anyone else really tired of the Fisher-Price trending in desktop operating systems.

You are not alone. First thing that bites the dust on my machines is all that flowery crap that seems to so enthrall some.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

Cadallin (863437) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927718)

I disagree strongly. Windows XP Luna and Vista Whateverthefuckitscalled are by far the worst offenders in this regard. What's wrong with XFCE after a little tweaking to personal preference? Xubuntu and Zenwalk are both pretty tasteful out of the box. OS X really isn't bad either, Panther and Tiger (and leopard after the latest patches) are solid, and have high contrast UI elements. It's convenient.

Speaking of which has anybody noticed all the websites going to a light gray text on white background? Even the BBC gone to this, its horrible, and nearly unreadable.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (4, Interesting)

sholden (12227) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927800)

colour depth went up. As soon as you could essentially assume a universal 24-bit colour everything went fisher-price.

I expect it's what most people wanted all along, I remember netscape used to grab all the colours on my X terminal so that as you moused in and out of the netscape window the screen would flip between the netscape window and the rest of the screen showing random color goodness.

Like people want borders on their windows... crazy...

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22927822)

No, youre not alone.
But I have to disagree with your rating of KDE 3. In contrary to KDE 4, KDE 3 is so highly and easily configurable (no much effort needed), that you are able to achieve a really professional feeling and looking desktop. One of the kind you want to get your appointees to work with. Without needless (work- and time-)space-wasting widgets/gadgets, huge borders and icons a.s.o..
Sadly this doesn't apply to the new KDE 4 with its ridiculous, inelegantly "plasmaism" and a "Fisher-Price"-file manager like dolphin instead of konqueror, a circuitous MacOS like System-Settings applet and the worst start-menu of the universum.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

PitaBred (632671) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927956)

Cartoons are for kids, too. Real men watch sports, and that's it. Or a skin flick if it's Friday night.

Get over yourself. It's a clean, functional, nice-looking interface. You can tweak it how you like (KDE has some very minimalist themes if you'd like), or just don't use it. The appeal is that you have to use the thing 8 hours a day at least, so you may as well have it not be harsh on the eyes. As long as it doesn't get in my way (I don't feel that it does), then I'd rather have something nicer to stare at than plain gray, square window borders.

Or do you think a stock racing car [dreamshine.com] has all the interior niceties that are necessary for any driver? I mean, it's enough to control your car, right?

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1)

amirulbahr (1216502) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928038)

Don't have much Windows eXPerience, but I don't think its fair to lump MS in there. I think they've generally done well to provide a cool hacker looking desktop... what with the white monospaced text on a blue background and all...

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#22928078)

Could you explain what you're talking about in actual terms? I'm not sure if you're trying to troll, or trying to use hyperbole, but "Fisher Price" and "Teddy Ruxpin" and "clearly for kids" are not exactly standard computer terms.

As for why to make GUIs more toylike in general, that's easy: to increase the user success rate. That's it. (What did you think the purpose of a GUI was?) I know a bunch of old-school UNIX geeks are embarrassed by having to use something with color icons, anti-aliased fonts, and accelerated graphics, but I don't know that anybody has ever found these features to *reduce* your ability to do whatever it is you want to do. In comparison, when computers look geeky, a lot of people are afraid to do anything. These features do increase the success rate for a lot of people.

I worked in tech support for a while, and if you haven't, you really wouldn't believe it. It's not that people are stupid; they just have a completely different outlook than you (if you've ever read slashdot). I remember asking one person (a tenured university professor who'd been programming since punchcard days, who we were basically teaching how to use a mouse) why he didn't try clicking something that looked like an obvious (to me) thing to try. His response shocked me: "I would be afraid to click that". It wasn't in the manual, you see.

If you're not used to it, a computer can be an intimidating place. Imagine asking a random person to do something under the hood of his car, or in the cockpit of an airplane -- even something simple. *I'd* be afraid to do anything! It's foreign territory. These things are built to look industrial and scary (compared to, say, the inside of your car, or the passenger seats on an airliner) precisely because they're not for normal people to operate.

A toy, OTOH, is built to look inviting. It's plastic or metal, so you can't possibly break it, even if you tried. Things are rounded and move smoothly, which mean no pain and no surprises. These things make people feel more comfortable trying things. I know *you* don't need comfort when using a computer, but you'll use a computer (successfully) anyway. Nobody's afraid that drop-shadows will cause you to be unable to type "grep" in your terminal.

And if you don't like colors, choose the "Graphite" theme on your Mac (one menu choice), or an old GNOME theme, or even a different window manager or whatnot. (GNOME is highly configurable, despite initial appearances -- just not in the main menus.) If you want your computer to look geeky, it's not exactly hard.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (2, Insightful)

jjohnson (62583) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928138)

Because while an extreme ability to customize the smallest thing is great when 1) I want to customize small things, and 2) I know how to customize it, the rest of the time I want Fischer Price. I want a simple, direct interface. I don't want to spend time clicking through multiple tabs or unfolding tree menus or visually selecting one from many icons.

90% of my time is spent doing very few things that implicate the interface--terminal, browser, IDE--and are best taken care of with a very slick, minimalist interface. It's not only best for unsophisticated users; most of the time, it's most functional for power users too once they've bothered to get things the way they like.

Re:What's with the Fisher-Price trend? (0)

NitroWolf (72977) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928258)

Yeah - I'm replying to my own post.

I seem to have failed to get my point across properly, so I'm going to try again.

  • In the responses, the lions share seemed to be under the impression I was looking for a minimalist approach; I am not. I am looking for a slick, efficient, smooth approach. Minimalist does not have what I would want on a desktop theme. Think Stealth Fighter with a little more rounded edges... maybe Stealth Bomber. It can be insanely complicated, but it's still usable. It does what I want while still looking "cool." Every line and function has a reason to be there.

    In one of the replies, someone mentioned the XP (Luna) theme as being all that - it's not. It's partially that - but it's still bubbly and Fisher-Price-esque in a number of very prominent areas (Start button, giant icons, etc). Using the plane analogy, it's a 747 with a cartoon paint job. It gets a lot of people where they want to be, but you don't want to be seen pulling up to the tarmac in it when the people you're meeting are arriving in a private jet.

  • Another point someone brought up was a sarcastic bit about there being a market for elaborate set of keystrokes and Dennis Leary, Sam Kinison, etc... berating you for making a mistake. In other words - an unforgiving, exacting window manager. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I want bells and whistles, but I want them to have a useful function, not just there for eye candy. I want it to be fast and responsive - yes I want both, eye candy but not garish eye candy (I'm looking at you Luna and KDE), and I want that eye candy to be responsive (I'm looking at you KDE and Gnome).

  • Someone else said I should get over it (and mentioned it's a clean, functional, nice-looking interface - but neglected to mention which one they were talking about) - Well, why should I get over it? I can't tweak Gnome how I like, since there doesn't seem to be a way to tweak it in that manner. Perhaps it's there, but I have yet to find it. KDE is the same way. XP - don't even get me started. I don't use a Mac, so I can't speak to that. This person goes on to mention that they enjoy staring at Fisher-Price colors and graphics all day because it's not harsh on the eyes. Maybe not, but it sure as hell is harsh on the adult brain.

Still waiting for KDE 4 to be ready (4, Interesting)

leamanc (961376) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927612)

As a long-time KDE fan, I have been waiting for what seems like forever for KDE 4. I've been using 3.5 every day, along with OS X Tiger/Leopard, for the last couple of years. I love the apps, I love the environment and, in general, KDE's sense of style. The beauty that is Oxygen has had me stoked since the first screenshots came out.

I've been trying to use it as my regular window manager since a repo became available to Kubuntu users. I have been fully prepared to sacrifice some functionality and applications to use the latest and greatest, but yet still can't use it on an everyday basis, by a long shot.

Besides just general bugginess, there are some issues with the user interface that need fixing ASAP. First and foremost is speed. KDE has always been snappy for me, even on PowerPC G3/G4 hardware. On my Dell Inspiron with a 1.83 GHz Core Duo, things take forever to launch. It feels like OS X Public Beta all over again to me, in terms of application launch speed. (KDE 3.5 is super snappy on this same box.)

Next on my hit list are the widgets. We need to be able to hide the widget launcher in the right hand corner of the desktop. I've always been able to keep a super-minimalist desktop with KDE, and this menu is nothing short of distracting. And why is the panel now a widget that can only accept other widgets (of which there are a very small amount)? Where are the great little applets and buttons from KDEs past? Why can't I add an application launcher icon to the panel, like in any other desktop environment out there? For that matter, can I even create a custom application launcher anywhere? Why can't the panel be made to be a custom size?

KDE 4 has the potential to be truly revolutionary, but at this point, it's all good looks and severely lacking in functionality. Here's hoping 4.1 will actually be where 4.0 should have been.

Re:Still waiting for KDE 4 to be ready (1)

toejam13 (958243) | more than 6 years ago | (#22927802)

KDE 4 has the potential to be truly revolutionary, but at this point, it's all good looks and severely lacking in functionality.

That's not necessarily such a bad thing.

This allows for the new framework to get out into public hands as a stable environment. More conservative users can continue to use the older v3 branch until v4 is brought up to speed.

Besides, not everyone needs all of those extra features, so why should they wait? You can see this with several KDE "lite" compiler packages available.

As an example, I have an old AMD K6-2/500 (384MB PC100 mem, Nv5700u grfx, 80GB Seagate 7200.6 disk, ALI Aladdin-V bridge) running FreeBSD 6.3, KDE 4.0.1 and Firefox 3.0b4. I keep it around as a toy for the nostalgia factor. Amazingly, KDE4 runs very well under it. It is just a hair slower than the quite spartan Xfce4 window manager. Running through various menus and configuration options is quite acceptable, if far from zippy. This compares to KDE3, which was borderline unusable on the same system.


--
Disclaimer: my entire FreeBSD environment (kernel, userland, xorg, kde, firefox, qt and the like) were built from source using the -march=k6-2 -o2 -ffast-math options
Precompiled binaries are for gnubies. ;)
Cheated and compiled it using my K8/3800+

If you are just looking for eyecandy (1)

cyberassasin (4943) | more than 6 years ago | (#22928036)

you can go here [jarzebski.pl] . The original Blog in Polish that was translated... be nice to the server. maybe someone can mirror...

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?