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Unique Broadband Over Powerline Project Planned For Mosques

Zonk posted about 6 years ago | from the not-in-the-states dept.

Networking 205

Lucas123 writes "Broadband over powerline (BPL) provider Velchip is heading up a project that will offer 60 million very unique network users an unlimited high speed Internet connection of 224Mbps at a cost of only around RM5 ($1.58) per user per month. That's the cheapest, fastest internet connection in the world. The network is slated for use in the $14 billion 'Smart Mosque' project, which will be rolled out over three years in Indonesia and will link together 400,000 mosques. To add some perspective, in the US Verizon FiOS currently offers up to 30 Mbps downloads and 5 Mbps uploads starting at $42.99 a month. BPL modems use existing electrical power lines to deliver high speed Internet access and data transmission."

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Unlimited? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978622)

I think you'll need Allah's help for that.

Re:Unlimited? (5, Insightful)

catwh0re (540371) | about 6 years ago | (#22978746)

A fast connection to your ISP, doesn't mean you'll have a fast Internet experience.

While this will no doubt allow the ISP to deliver cache/proxy data very quickly, it will not be financially viable to provide very fast live-internet down this pipe. E.g anything that can be classified as a web-application will probably still be quite average/slow speeds.

The price comes about from using an existing infrastructure, as you know the biggest cost in rolling out a network is the transmission medium. (Especially if it's not your expense to maintain it.)

Re:Unlimited? (1)

Kyokushi (1164377) | about 6 years ago | (#22978788)

Not to mention Indonesia only have five servers that handle outgoing international connections IIRC. I might be wrong on this.

Re:Unlimited? (1)

1001011010110101 (305349) | about 6 years ago | (#22979046)

I was thinking about that...they are going to need some humongous peering points to get that kind of traffic into the rest of the world.

Re:Unlimited? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978838)

What the fuck are they going to use these connections for?

DDoS attacks againsed any site that hosts Fitna?

Re:Unlimited? (1, Insightful)

Dan541 (1032000) | about 6 years ago | (#22978844)

To be honest it woulden't surprise me if that was a primary intention of this network.


Re:Unlimited? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978862)


from real life terrorisim to cyber Terrorist!

Re:Unlimited? (2, Insightful)

memorycardfull (1187485) | about 6 years ago | (#22979180)

The story says that the connections are expected to to enhance economic growth and internet literacy, which makes sense to me. It makes me uneasy to hear insinuations from presumably intelligent people that a developing and/or Muslim nation has little need for broadband except as a weapon. The story about ambition to use the internet as a weapon is over here: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/02/1734212 [slashdot.org]

Re:Unlimited? (3, Funny)

Stellian (673475) | about 6 years ago | (#22978866)

That of course if Allah has nothing against millions of believers downloading porn on bittorrent at super-high speeds.

Re:Unlimited? (0, Offtopic)

marafa (745042) | about 6 years ago | (#22979396)

funny. i dint hear that kind of remark when the church in indonesia opened up their own isp!

Excuse me... Excuse me... (2, Funny)

denzacar (181829) | about 6 years ago | (#22979174)

I just wanted to ask a question. What does God need with a internet connection?

Perfection technology (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979290)

BPL is a nonfunctioning technology that is perfect for the delivery of information
to a culture that thrives on having no information.

I mean, how much bandwidth do you need to move the Koran around?


Whoa there Nelly! (4, Insightful)

Whiney Mac Fanboy (963289) | about 6 years ago | (#22978634)

That's the cheapest, fastest internet connection in the world.

No. It's not the fastet, because it doesn't exist.

To add some perspective, in the states Verizon FiOS currently offers up to 30 Mbps downloads and 5 Mbps uploads starting at $42.99 a month.

Yes, they do. Right now. Who knows what Verizon will be offering when (if) these guys get this network going. Awesome. The US still has better internet access than much of the third world.

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978640)

"We're sorry Verizon doesn't offer FiOS service in your area. However, please take a look at the Verizon services listed below that may be offered where you live."

Maybe one of these days. Yeah, like when I retire.

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (2, Informative)

uffe_nordholm (1187961) | about 6 years ago | (#22978690)

30Mb/s doesn't sound like much, if you're after the world record... A lady in Karlstad (Sweden) had her son install(*) something a bit faster: 40Gb/s. (article in Swedish: http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.153268 [www.idg.se]). Although she seems to have used this opportunity to do much more than dry her laundry. * I think the initiative came form the son, not the old lady.

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (1)

Niten (201835) | about 6 years ago | (#22979080)

I agree that we're well behind many parts of the world when it comes to fast Internet access. However, you can't take the single, well-publicized case of the Swedish lady with a 40 Gb/s connection on top of specialized networking gear, and extrapolate that to make any meaningful statements about the overall state of broadband availability in Sweden versus in the United States.

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (1)

beh (4759) | about 6 years ago | (#22979348)

Would you rather hear it from from the Wall Street Journal's principal tech columnist Walt Mossberg? (Listen to the first part of Mossberg's comments on the video: http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/05/mossberg-3g-iphone-in-60-days/ [macrumors.com] )

I also seem to remember something quite a while back here on slashdot about some annual internet usage survey, which also kind of highlighted that the US is leading the pack in technology, but that Europe/Far East are leading in technology adoption.

Having the 'might' of the US IT industry doesn't necessarily mean that joe bloggs automatically has the highest possible speed/quality internet connectivity there is. You will probably still be able to find very good offerings of this technology in the US - but it might not be quite as widespread as in some other nations.

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978726)

The US still has better internet access than much of the third world.

You must be so proud.

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (3, Interesting)

strength_of_10_men (967050) | about 6 years ago | (#22979084)

The US still has better internet access than much of the third world.
Comparing our internet access to third world countries is pathetic. Why don't we have better internet access than ALL of the third world, if not the best internet access, period?

Re:Whoa there Nelly! (1, Insightful)

Saxmachine (1045648) | about 6 years ago | (#22979126)

The US still has better internet access than much of the third world.

You say that like it's an achievement to be proud of.

Third World? (5, Interesting)

Lorien_the_first_one (1178397) | about 6 years ago | (#22979438)

Hardly a fair comparison. Japan vs. the US is a much better comparison. In some parts, they are offering 1Gbps. In most places, the average is 60 Mbs for about $35/mo.

Republicans have never been big on competition. Just ask their friends who helped to write the 1996 Telecommunications Act. That whole "Republican Revolution" was really a revolution for their *Republican* investor friends.

Bear Stearns will quietly tell you that Bush just wanted to bail his friends out. That's the free market for ya.

Until the market gets *really* free from the incumbents, we aren't going to see very high speeds on our internet connections. Here's a great link on the subject of how Bush and his friends let it happen:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/28/AR2007082801990_pf.html [washingtonpost.com]

Yes, Republicans like free markets, as long as its free for *Republican* investors to pillage, rape and burn.

So the next time you wonder why you're still using DSL at 1.5 Mbs, just ask Bush. At least he knows what a checkout scanner in s supermarket looks like. (Or does he?) Or you can go here: www.speedmatters.org


Weird (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978642)

Well, this can't work since "Smart Mosque" is essentially an oxymoron. I mean, Islam is the most backwards religion out there (of the big 3/4). This would probably only be used to further spread propaganda or post Bin-Laden tapes to youtube.

Spec needs to be clearer (5, Insightful)

kg261 (990379) | about 6 years ago | (#22978674)

Well it's not clear from the article if it's 224Mbps for all 60 million users. Also, the premises could have 224Mbps locally, but the end to end a fraction of that.

Re:Spec needs to be clearer (1)

edwardpickman (965122) | about 6 years ago | (#22978850)

Well it's not clear from the article if it's 224Mbps for all 60 million users. Also, the premises could have 224Mbps locally, but the end to end a fraction of that.

224Mps divided by 60 millions users? Aren't we talking telegraph speeds at that bit rate?

Re:Spec needs to be clearer (1)

kg261 (990379) | about 6 years ago | (#22978908)

The article also mentions satellites. There could be burst downloads at that quoted rate, but each terminal (which will not be 60 million) does not get continuous full bandwidth.

The news headline and article are bullshit. (3, Interesting)

aliquis (678370) | about 6 years ago | (#22978888)

Why do they cound 400.000 mosques as 60 million users? If I have 10 people in my appartment do my Internet connection become much cheaper then? To me the price seems to be 1500 times more than what they say for each 224 mbps connection, which are 2370 $. Sure the dollar are falling but it's still expensive as hell, and it's neither of cheapest or fastest there is.

Just marketing bullshit.

Who cares if there are 1500 possible mosques visitors in each mosque?

Re:The news headline and article are bullshit. (1)

1001011010110101 (305349) | about 6 years ago | (#22979056)

Dude, its broadband via power lines, they are not counting the people that visits the mosque, They run some kind of server there that "powers" the rest of the people living around it or something.

Re:Spec needs to be clearer (1)

Goody (23843) | about 6 years ago | (#22979030)

Well it's not clear from the article if it's 224Mbps for all 60 million users. Also, the premises could have 224Mbps locally, but the end to end a fraction of that.

There's no known BPL Internet access network in the world that is delivering 224 Mbs to end users. The few systems in the US are delivering speeds in the 1 to 8 Mbs range.

Indonesia? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978686)

This is Indonesia we're talking about. Utterly incompetent nation - they couldn't organize an orgy in a whorehouse, let alone a world-leading broadband network.

Re:Indonesia? (5, Interesting)

Kyokushi (1164377) | about 6 years ago | (#22978776)

The contractors are Malaysian--but yes, I hardly believe this will go on. Power lines in Indonesia are horrible, usually they black out whenever there's heavy storm for some reason. Nevermind that some people STEAL power lines and cables for money (how do they do that I have no frickin clue). Add the incompetency of bureucrats, and there you go. I don't know how does islamic organizations respond to this, and most importantly, who is going to pay for all of this. We got a huge national debt already, and not much people have a laptop--and those who do certainly don't bring them to mosques, where footwear got lost all the time.

Re:Indonesia? (2, Interesting)

whiskey6 (1172575) | about 6 years ago | (#22979682)

Yeah, Indonesia is such a poor country. Whilst $1.58 is cheap to us, don't forget that the average salary over there is around $200/month, if that, which is why so many of them go work on cruise ships. When I was there a litre of gas was $.35-ish, a bottle of beer $.80 and a really freaking good local meal around $5 or so. So the rate may seem cheap, but it's actually quite a bit for your average Indonesian.

Re:Indonesia? (1)

johannesg (664142) | about 6 years ago | (#22979700)

Ok, here's some answers to get you going:

1. Power lines break during storms because the wind cracks the towers, causing them to fall over.

2. Once broken, the electricity company will cut the power. It will then (but not before!) be safe to steal the lines.

3. If you are using laptops as footwear, you are doing it wrong...

Bad Idea (3, Informative)

ajs318 (655362) | about 6 years ago | (#22978700)

Broadband over power lines is an extraordinarily bad idea.

It might just about work in a country where there is no radio or TV broadcasting or mobile telephony to interfere with, and no panic about the effects of stray RF waves on the human body.

Re:Bad Idea (1)

thetartanavenger (1052920) | about 6 years ago | (#22979134)

It might just about work in a country where there is no radio or TV broadcasting or mobile telephony to interfere with, and no panic about the effects of stray RF waves on the human body.
I think you may be a little confused. Those are arguments against forms of wireless communication. Broadband over power uses existing power lines that supply the electricity to your establishment, nothing to do with wireless communication whatsoever.

From what I've read, and I'll grant you it's not that much, BPL is actually quite good and stable. Although I do question the speeds that they're claiming to be able to get. You might be able to get speeds like that in a very local network, and I've even heard of technologies that can provide 1 Gbps over power lines [gigle.biz], but the moment you expand it into an ISP situation like they're describing I highly doubt they'll be able to provide that much bandwidth to every user.

Re:Bad Idea (1)

thetartanavenger (1052920) | about 6 years ago | (#22979262)

From what I've read, and I'll grant you it's not that much
Hmmm, it seems maybe I should have done [arrl.org] more [kohlgroup.com] reading [southgatearc.org] prior to submission. Ignore what I said about it not being a wireless issue..

Re:Bad Idea (2, Interesting)

faedle (114018) | about 6 years ago | (#22979310)

BPL typically uses frequencies much lower than where most TV broadcasting takes place, and is WAAAAY below the frequencies used by mobile phones.

As far as RF exposure goes, these are power lines. The power levels that BPL uses are way below the EMP emissions that are coming off the power lines as the result of.. oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that they are carrying alternating current oscillating at 50 or 60 Hertz?

Now, there is concern amongst users of HF and low-band VHF. Public safety, amateur, maritime, and some broadcast ('AM' [more accurately called "medium wave"] and short-wave) are all well within the frequency bands used by BPL, and in most of the first world these users are very vocal with their complaints.

Re:Bad Idea (1)

ajs318 (655362) | about 6 years ago | (#22979466)

The whole point is that you can't modulate a carrier wave with a frequency greater than half the carrier frequency. And power lines are carrying 50Hz. So the most you could modulate onto a power line would be 25Hz. And since you need two full cycles to transmit a single bit, your maximum bit rate using the 50Hz mains as a carrier would be 12.5 bits per second -- or one megabit per day.

To get more bandwidth, you have to modulate a high-frequency carrier onto the power line first. This gets over the problem that the impedance of all the electricity company's generators in parallel is low enough to annihilate any signal you tried to modulate onto the line; a generator is inductive, so its impedance rises with frequency. But without a properly-matched impedance on the far end, the power lines will act as transmitting antennas. They may not be terribly efficient; but the unwanted RF emissions will be everywhere the power lines run.

Re:Bad Idea (2, Informative)

O Blimey (1268410) | about 6 years ago | (#22979324)

BPL (Broadband over Power Lines) can actually be a brilliant idea.

There are 2 different concepts:
1) Using high voltage long distance lines
2) Using household voltage lines and distances

The first approach has been pretty much abandoned. The second is very much alive and competing fiercely with Wi-Fi.
There are 2 competing camps, one being HomePlug and the other using chips from a Spanish company, ES2.
I have conducted trials with HomePlug AV in a marina. The claim is 200Mbps but you won't even get this when you plug 2 of those adapters side by side on an extension cord.
A more realistic assumption is around 50 Mbps. I have actally tested this in a marina over a distance of 120 meters and measured 58 Mbps rock solid stable.
So far I've bought about 40 units.

Re:Bad Idea (1)

ajs318 (655362) | about 6 years ago | (#22979518)

The second idea (using existing mains wiring in a building to support a network) works well in countries where biphase power is delivered from an individual transformer outside each dwelling, because the transformer blocks the high-frequency carrier used by the ethernet-over-power system.

In countries where triphase power is delivered to each group of three dwellings from a big transformer at the end of the street (so each individual house is on single-phase power) it works reasonably well. The combined inductance of the electricity meter and the length of cable between other houses on the same phase (3 doors in each direction) is weakening the signal just enough to prevent interference. (Also, the chances are good that people in different buildings will have different IP ranges -- it might be fun to try #ping -b sometime, though.)

In countries where triphase power is delivered to each dwelling from a big transformer at the end of the street, and each house is on three-phase power, it may not work at all: adjacent rooms may well be on different phases.

best counter-terrorism idea ive seen so far.... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978706)

Bundle a service that every Muslim/Mosque will use, with a high risk terrorism threat such as the power grid, Powergrid = safe then :) We should do that here, and we should all become a part of the global sharia-net.... All images have been disabled by default as its against the law to publish images of humans or Muhammad.... Text based internet... maybe someone will post Muhammad ascii pron to the site so i guess we cant have text or images on any sharia-net websites.... damn

Could someone enlighten me? (2, Insightful)

Paktu (1103861) | about 6 years ago | (#22978718)

Why would you need high speed internet at a mosque of all places? Who goes to a church, synagogue, temple, Scientology brainwashing center, etc. to access the Web?

Re:Could someone enlighten me? (4, Informative)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 6 years ago | (#22978760)

Probably because the Mosque doubles as Town Hall and general purpose public building in many parts of Indonesia. I think this is a great way to enlighten people and broaden their experience of the world.

Re:Could someone enlighten me? (1)

Kyokushi (1164377) | about 6 years ago | (#22978816)

They are-but only for the low and middle class islamic people. Anyone who's quite well off usually hold their events somewhere else.
Also, they go to mosque to socialize--not browse internet. I doubt even 5% of mosques have an internet connection here.
Not to mention most people don't have laptops, and those who do usually have their own broadband connection.
There's nothing preventing them to play games and browse porn on them either-- it's much, much cheaper than netcafes here, which usualy cost abut Rp3000-4000/hour (US$ 0.30-0.40)

Re:Could someone enlighten me? (1)

sleeponthemic (1253494) | about 6 years ago | (#22978940)

I think this is a great way to enlighten people and broaden their experience of the world.

  Yeah, but isn't it just cheaper to skip immediately to the anal?

Re:Could someone enlighten me? (1)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | about 6 years ago | (#22978950)

I'll be very curious about coupling the "Mesh" capability of the OLPC laptops to it. It could leapfrog a generation of poorer children to the 21st century of content and network access, all on Linux.

Re:Could someone enlighten me? (1)

Dan541 (1032000) | about 6 years ago | (#22979568)

I think this is a great way to enlighten people and broaden their experience of the world.
The Same world they try to censor?

Re:Could someone enlighten me? (4, Insightful)

monkaru (927718) | about 6 years ago | (#22978802)

In much of the world mosques, Buddhist temples and\or Catholic churches are the only places the locals can get a proper education. Ultra high speed internet could be extremely useful to them when divvied up among thousands of students and religious scholars.

Right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978742)

Where is the whatcouldpossiblygowrong tag?

Re:Right... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978942)

The contractors seem to be getting a better deal than the mosque visitor:

Thirdly, a 100-year agreement was exchanged with Nadhlatul Ulama Indonesia and Manhad Islam Hadhari, the Indonesian clients responsible for the network of mosques that will be converted during the BPL project.

A 100-year maintenance contract for an Internet connection project? I cannot imagine a 224mbps shared network being very conducive in 2108.

Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978748)

The 'prophet' of Islam was a mass murderer, multiple rapist, bigamist with 12 wives (slaves), and a PAEDOPHILE, who 'married' a SIX YEAR OLD GIRL when he was FIFTY FOUR and RAPED her when she was NINE.
What sort of people worship such an individual and call him 'the perfect man'?

Ha! My Captcha word is "heretic"!

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978820)

Could be worse, could be the Talmud [come-and-hear.com].

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (-1, Troll)

Tastecicles (1153671) | about 6 years ago | (#22978858)

This from someone who, I'm assuming, follows a faith that can't decide on the date of death of its messiah yet can nail down his date and place of birth to the second and to the square foot? Would this be the same faith which has a god so vengeful he destroys entire civilisations and causes mass exinction events such as the cities of Sodom and Gamorrah and the Flood? The same god who not only turned a blind eye to the Holocaust, his spokesperson actually blessed the guy that orchestrated it? The same god who even now sends absolutely no sign that the insane amount of death, disease and economic and actual physical rape going on in the Middle East is pissing him off even slightly? Yep, sure. Allah is evil, God is good.

Here's the actual truth.

God is a practical joker. He is a hedonist. As long as he's all right, all is fine with the world. The second he's uncomfortable (like if Charleton Heston beats him at chess) he'll send a plague of frogs. Nothing to do with global warming, Chuck just caught him in a Fools' Mate again. As to the other bit; when God created the Earth (as we all know he did), he took the Sabbath then sat back and relaxed. Sometimes he got his arse handed to him in chess, that's when he got pissed and flooded the place. Or sent a messiah (proof that abstinence is 99.999% effective!). Or sunk a couple cities into the sand. Other than that, he sat back and watched from the sideline. Never to show his face.

On the other hand, we have the Devil. Always poking in, going "YO!" and letting us know that he has his thumb in every single one of our pies. The man knows all because he sees it all. He knows all because he's involved in it all, and you can sure shit bet that he's taking his slice. God? Where is he? Come on out, Mister God, we'd like to talk to you! - to paraphrase Roger Cook.

Can you spell "Irony"?

PS: Apologies to Al Pacino.

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978978)

Taesticles, nice try, but no dice. You "assumed" wrong, idiot. I'm an atheist.

How does that change what ISLAM is? It doesn't. Islam is still pure evil, as you can SEE, if you study the life of their so-called 'prophet'.

I see you couldn't actually say ANYTHING about the crimes of the 'prophet' - why is that?

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979012)

crimes... the only crimes here are your take it in the ass horse fucker raping tatics.

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (0, Flamebait)

Tastecicles (1153671) | about 6 years ago | (#22979690)

I might throw your post right back at you - again. 1. Islam preaches peace and tolerance. Christianity preaches destruction of nonbelievers with extreme prejudice. The proof is RIGHT THERE in the Bible AND in the 13C Crusades, AND in the current US Cruisade against Nonbelievers in the Christian faith. It's all a matter of historical record. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Please. FTR, nowhere in the Koran does it say anything about strapping a bomb to one's chest and claiming 2800 people in the name of Allah. 2. So Clinton got his cock sucked. And? The United States suffered what for it? Oh yes, the first budget SURPLUS in living memory! Point being that it matters not a jot what these people did in private, their public faces spoke volumes for their worth to society. Mohammad is revered as a saint because of his actions in public, not for his private life. Let his PUBLIC ACTIONS speak for themselves. Let Clinton's public actions speak for themselves. Leave their private lives the fuck alone.

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978934)

During the prophets time the laws were different and our standards of today do not apply to the standards of then. I only wish i could have lived during a time when i could have 12 wives under 15 years old. They would all belong to me and i could do as i please. Praise be! Praise be!

Re:Isn't "Smart Mosque" an oxymoron? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979584)

I call him "Mohammed the Moron"


It'll never happen (1)

carvell (764574) | about 6 years ago | (#22978780)

I'd be /really/ surprised if this gets the go-ahead in any developed country. The RF emissions from unshielded cable with 224mbps of square waves travelling down them, all over a country, would be incredible. It'll never pass Ofcom (UK) or FCC (US?) tests. Someone's going to mention those home broadband things you can get that send stuff down the power cables at home, which haven't been outlawed, but I don't think it'll be long before they are.

Re:It'll never happen (4, Informative)

HateBreeder (656491) | about 6 years ago | (#22978798)

You might be surprised to learn that "square waves" aren't traveling as is on the lines... they are being modulated in a way that makes them less susceptible to noise, and span across a limited bandwidth... this has the side effect of making them look more like a finite combination of sine waves. Besides, copper telephone lines used for ADSL aren't shielded either.

Re:It'll never happen (4, Insightful)

Goody (23843) | about 6 years ago | (#22979010)

Besides, copper telephone lines used for ADSL aren't shielded either.

Twisted pair copper is self-shielding; it's one of the reasons why we use it today in telephony instead of the old open straight wire.

Re:It'll never happen (1)

obscured_dude (884855) | about 6 years ago | (#22978808)

Your forgetting... this is Indonesia we are talking about... not the USA... not Australia even, if they want to pump 10kw of RF out of their power lines im pretty sure the Indonesian govt is the only people who are going to care. And we all know how much they care....

Re:It'll never happen (1)

MichaelSmith (789609) | about 6 years ago | (#22978938)

It occurred to me that if you ran fibre cable to your mosque there is a chance of it being ripped off and sold. Power cable can be stolen as well but you risk being electrocuted in the process.

Why? (0, Redundant)

LingNoi (1066278) | about 6 years ago | (#22978800)

Why would a mosque need internet access? Isn't it suppose to be a place of worship, not an internet cafe?

Re:Why? (2, Funny)

jamesh (87723) | about 6 years ago | (#22978852)

Why would a mosque need internet access? Isn't it suppose to be a place of worship, not an internet cafe?

People should be free to worship their deity of choice in their own way. If they want to do so sitting in front of a computer screen looking at pictures of naked women then who are you to judge them?

Re:Why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979124)

People should be free to worship their deity of choice in their own way. If they want to do so sitting in front of a computer screen looking at pictures of naked women then who are you to judge them?

This is in Islamic places of worship, mind you. Both of your statements above are extremely incompatible with Islam and are actually pretty strong arguments against broadband in mosques.

Re:Why? (0, Flamebait)

freedom_india (780002) | about 6 years ago | (#22978876)

Yeah. And Mosque??? of all places?
Aren't these the same guys who blow up Telecom towers in Afghanistan as symbols of western decadence.
I bet the broadband line will live for 500 milliseconds before it is burnt down along with its equipment.

Re:Why? (2, Insightful)

notabaggins (1099403) | about 6 years ago | (#22979582)

Why would a mosque need internet access? Isn't it suppose to be a place of worship, not an internet cafe?
In poor areas, the church or mosque or what have you is often also the center of community life. They don't have all the options available to urban first worlders. You still often see this even in the US today in small, rural areas. It was even more common in our agrarian past when Sunday was your only day off and the one big chance to go into town just to socialize.

I suspect this is why mosques hold such sway in their communities. Far as a community "center", there isn't anything but the mosque. Your only social and community life revolves around that institution.

web speed overpay? (2, Funny)

locksmith101 (1017864) | about 6 years ago | (#22978806)

how come we have to pay so much more for something that's not even close to what Indonesia (hello? Indonesia - with it's 13,000 islands! has way better speed?) is about to launch? i'm getting real tired of all those cynical capitalists...i'm moving to Indonesia!

Re:web speed overpay? (1)

Kyokushi (1164377) | about 6 years ago | (#22979272)

Parent is right in a way. Corporations don't have much power in indonesia since people would rather save their money than buy unnecesary / expensive products & services. There's almost no lock-ins either.

I think you verizon fios numbers aren't correct (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978832)

I currently have 15Mbps down AND up via FIOS. There are places that support 50Mbps down.

It doesn't change the gist of your story, but you should have the facts correct.

bpl is a hoax (5, Insightful)

eggled (1135799) | about 6 years ago | (#22978836)

Any power engineer worth his salt knows the power lines can be modeled as an RLC network... creating losses. These have been optimized for low frequencies (50-60 Hz). Once you get above 1 kHz, your signal won't propogate more than 500 feet. 1MHz and you're lucky to get 50 feet. BPL doesn't actually use the copper line as a waveguide, but creates a rude radio transmitter in the GHz range, which can cause all kinds of trouble. The reason they're trying this abroad is that it's already been rejected outright in the US.

Re:bpl is a hoax (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978926)

That's not quite true. Utilities use higher frequency signals (around 1kHz from memory) for load shedding and other signalling with ranges over tens of km.

Re:bpl is a hoax (2, Insightful)

Goody (23843) | about 6 years ago | (#22979090)

What you're talking about is PLC which is the low frequency predecessor to BPL that is used for grid control functions. I think PLC goes up to about 500 khz. That technology is proven, works fairly well and doesn't interfere with radio spectrum. Many companies are using it for automatic meter reading systems (AMR), a market that BPL has been wanting to break into, though I believe hasn't due to overall costs. The original poster is essentially correct about the properties of powerlines not being suited for broadband. BPL uses radio frequencies from 1.8 Mhz to about 88 Mhz, depending on the system and capacity. These frequencies are severely attenuated on the lines and the lines act like a natural antenna, radiating them into the adjacent area. BPL signals have been detected up to a mile or two away from the lines and NTIA modeling showed that aircraft frequencies would probably be affected about 20 miles away. The FCC implemented mandatory frequency notching to protect aircraft frequencies and vendors have also designed optional frequency notching to protect other frequency bands when the carrier deems it necessary. From a market standpoint, BPL is at a severe disadvantage because the underlying technology just can't scale due to its many technical issues. After over ten years of development abroad and five years of a well-funded marketing and FCC-lobbying effort, there are only a handful of commercial BPL systems in the US and FCC reports show customer numbers below 10,000. BPL is included in the FCC's "Other" category, which should tell something about how insignificant it is. However, I think you'll see some traction in dirt poor countries where any bandwidth and any quality of service is acceptable and the wireless spectrum issues are ignored.

BPL is deploying in the U.S. (3, Informative)

colfer (619105) | about 6 years ago | (#22979016)

I live in the deplyment area in Virginia. Here is the U.S. map: http://www.bpl.coop/deploymentmap.php [bpl.coop] It is funded partly by the old Rural Electrificatio Agency of the 1930's! Its successor agency actually, in the Ag Dept. The problem of interfering with radio, especially ham readio, was supposedly fixed by "notching of" certain frequencies.

But... deployment here is three years behind schedule. Customers of two substations have it, but I don't know how well it is working. The company claims some equipment problem.
Rural users are really looking forward to this, if it works, or any alternative to satellite. The electrical co-op (non-profit utility, like a credit union compared to a bank, established in the 1930's) said the price would be $25/month. Satellite is $40 with terrible contracts and equipment costs. Not to mention gamers cannot live with the 0.7+ second lag.

There is no alternative in rural areas, where our cell service is marginal. Dialup with images off has been fun! More important than images off is selectively blocking Flash.

Deployment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication#Deployments [wikipedia.org] But see the next section, "Concluded Deployments" with a long list of place where BPL has been dismantled.

As for the tech. aspects, note you can run internet over a fence wire. :) I'll try to find the link.

Re:BPL is deploying in the U.S. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979504)

Sounds like you live in Nelson County! Welcome to third-world America!

I spoke with someone from CVEC a week or so ago and asked about the BPL status. His opinion was that it worked great for short distances but they were having problems extending it much more than a few miles. He didn't think it would ever be deployed across the area.

I doubt this BPL deployment in Indonesia will ever get off the ground either.

Nelson County is looking into a fiber deployment http://www.nelsoncountytimes.com/nco/news/local/article/traveling_the_county_looking_for_broadband_home_02_28_08_nco/2847/ [nelsoncountytimes.com] but it is targeted mainly to areas with schools and businesses, so us really rural folks in Nelson will still be out of luck.

Re:bpl is a hoax (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979206)

But then again, maybe there is a hidden agenda of blacking-out foreign shortwave broadcast in these countries. Some groups seem to just not be able to handle other viewpoints and would just love to remove access to them from their subjects altogether. Nobody is going to hear jack on their shortwave radio in these BPL-inundated towns. The Peoples' Republic of China spends a great deal of effort jamming shortwave stations they disagree with, so that people in China won't be able to hear these broadcasts. BPL does this and the subjects will even willingly flip the bill for it.

Re:bpl is a hoax (1)

Kyokushi (1164377) | about 6 years ago | (#22979304)

Blocking out shortwaves would require close proximity, and then youll have to deploy it in the forests instead. We're surrounded by sea.

Re:bpl is a hoax (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979336)

Yes, blocking shortwave would require close proximity. Its fairly difficult to get more than a couple dozen meters away from powerlines in a city.

Ok so the worth of freedom to slashdot users (2, Insightful)

OeLeWaPpErKe (412765) | about 6 years ago | (#22978870)

Is less than 200 mbit. Separation of religion and state is probably worth even less.

Great to know.

why? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978890)

internet in mosques? why are they doing this? i have never felt the need to surf internet in a mosque. i do my prayers and come out.
but if the mosque has a study center or something attached to it, you could have internet access there.

OH GOSH WHY?! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22978914)

Why?! Why give them more reason means to look for getting pissed at non-Muslims?!

We've already pampered them within society... So much that we turn a blind eye to their barbaric ways and now we want them to give them even more means to get angry on us yet again?

Note for the Slashdot Grammar Council (2, Insightful)

lancejjj (924211) | about 6 years ago | (#22978968)

60 million very unique network users
I can make the argument that a particular network design is "very" unique, suggesting that the design has "many distinctive attributes". Many grammar weenies would vehemently disagree with me.

But I have a tough time understanding that there could be 60 million "very" unique network users. I'd suppose that they'd just be unique.

Re:Note for the Slashdot Grammar Council (1)

value_added (719364) | about 6 years ago | (#22979382)

Many grammar weenies would vehemently disagree with me.

Not with your argument, but we would have trouble making sense of why you think being redundant has any value, and then overlook the possibility that the intended rhetorical effect may be the opposite of what you hoped.

Put simply, if something is "unique", then say so. If you're looking to describe other qualities, reach for a thesaurus. There's no need to dumb down the language for everyone when there's lots of good words [reference.com] you can use.

Grammar Weenie

I wonder... (1)

BountyX (1227176) | about 6 years ago | (#22979114)

I think the government could have just as easily chosen a library...they chose the Masque in order to strategically bring the public regularly into Masques. I suspect Indonesia (the people) might be practicing Islam with a "hands-off" approach and the government agenda is to "realign" the publics faith in favor of a more "hands-on" approach. The hands-off approach I'm talking about is similar to how Islam is practiced in a country like Turkey. Considering that the Turkish people interpret Ramadan "fasting" simply as not getting drunk for a while and cutting back on the smokes. Not to mention Turkey's unique Islamic practice of Topless nude beaches and the general public's CULT worship of metallica; It dosn't stop there...laws against wearing islamic clothing in public buildings to the point of such devotion that the Turkish public is currently impeaching their president for allowing headscarves in Turkish Universities. I think Indonesia is headed towards Turkish Islam and the government isn't ready for that kind of "hands off". Somtimes I wonder if Turkish people generally regard themselves as Islam as more of a "suicide bombing public insurance program".

Speedy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979254)

Since this will be installed in mosques, I assume the primary function of these internet connections will be super-fast porn downloads.

What? (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#22979332)

Terrorists dont need the internet.

This is typical of what others are doing (1)

grandpa-geek (981017) | about 6 years ago | (#22979370)

The 10 Gb Ethernet standard has been out there for several years now. IEEE-USA has had a position statement for at least two or three years advocating implementation of gigabit speed, bidirectional, broadband technology in the US. Other countries are implementing this technology for reasons of competitiveness and because it is feasible with current technology. Note that the communications chips in newer PC's are gigabit capable.

We need to do this to avoid becoming a third world telecommunications country, which is what we are on track for becoming. Companies like Verizon are offering dumbed down broadband, possibly for two reasons:

1. There is a "law" enunciated by Roxanne Googin, editor of a telecom newsletter, to the effect that broadband will either be a profitable monopoly (that the provider squeezes for all they can) or a "worthless commodity" (because the marginal cost and therefore the market price) approaches zero.

2. The providers want to couple broadband with entertainment. Gigabit, bidirectional broadband threatens the business models of the entertainment industry.

IEEE-USA has advocated separating content from carriage. This would make broadband providers common carriers. The user would negotiate content separately with content providers.

Trying to do it with BPL is a bad idea. BPL has three problems: interference, interference, and interference. Power engineers aren't accustomed to considering wavelength issues, because the wavelength at 60 Hz is thousands of miles. But at broadband frequencies the wavelength is a few feet. Any rusty attachment on a guy wire can become a source of intermodulation products that can then be radiated by the guy wire.

BPL screws up shortwave radio (1)

PinchDuck (199974) | about 6 years ago | (#22979372)

The great thing about Amateur Radio is that it allows people to connect in far-flung places. In an area as large as the Malay Archipelago, I have to believe that good, clear radio contact would take precedence over a technology that has been tried and abandoned in several different areas. No one thinks about the HAM radio guys, until a disaster strikes. Then they are the first ones on the air, delivering status reports and relaying information about what is needed where.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2006-03-19-powerline_x.htm [usatoday.com]

RFI (1)

Detritus (11846) | about 6 years ago | (#22979380)

If they use HF and low-VHF frequencies, it isn't just an issue for Indonesia. They could cause interference all over the world. I wish someone would put a stake in the heart of BPL and chop off its head. A power line is a very large antenna, not a properly shielded transmission line. Mumbo-jumbo about new technology is not going to repeal the laws of electromagnetic theory.

Those dang laws of physics! (1)

Ancient_Hacker (751168) | about 6 years ago | (#22979472)

I find it hard to believe these guys can violate the laws of Physics, and in a big way. Power lines and power transformers are optimized for passing 50 to 60 Hz. Not 50 to 60 MegaHertz! Your typical wire in the air is going to lose about 99.9% of a 50MHz signal every city block, plus it will pick up tons of noise. I'd be surprised if they can emulate a single 10mbps twisted pair.

OT'ish: shielded powerlines (1)

Froze (398171) | about 6 years ago | (#22979482)

Is anyone aware of a shielded power line (coax, twisted pair or other) that would work also as a RF(or higher) transmission line? In the US almost without exception house wiring is either 10, 12 or 16 gauge parallel solid coper cable. Ideally it would seem that a single power/wave-guide line would allow for pretty much unlimited adaptability in refitting, oh say your toaster oven to a recipe management terminal, or whatever.
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