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390 comments

From the horse's mouth (5, Informative)

afaik_ianal (918433) | about 6 years ago | (#23021740)

It's not just in the media, either. They emailed us all the following:

Hi

Because you are a valued seller we'd like to let you know about some changes to eBay.com.au [ebay.com.au] that are going to make our marketplace an even safer place for you to buy and sell.

These changes will be introduced in two stages:
From 21 May you must offer PayPal on all your listings as well as currently permitted payment methods.

From 17 June you will only be able to offer PayPal on your listings and pay on pick up (i.e.paid for when picking up the item).

Pay on pick up can only be offered in conjunction with PayPal. No other payment methods will be permitted.
A small number of exclusions [ebay.com.au] will apply to these changes.

Get the lowdown on how these changes will affect you.
"These changes may have some significant implications for how you trade on eBay.com.au, which is why we're organising a series of Q & A events to discuss them with you in person.

Come along and hear from me about why eBay is making these changes. We'll have a number of eBay and PayPal staff available to answer your questions and explain the changes in more detail.
We are also conducting a series of online workshops about the changes throughout April and May, so keep your eye on the announcement board for details."

Re:From the horse's mouth (5, Informative)

ranulf (182665) | about 6 years ago | (#23021840)

Also, Ebay UK looks like they're not waiting for the results of the Australia experiment. From an e-mail from them this morning:

Starting in late April, eBay will now ask all sellers to offer PayPal on their listings. This means that even more items on eBay will offer buyer protection.

This is one of many new initiatives that eBay and PayPal are doing to make it much more difficult for bad sellers to operate on eBay. As a result, you'll notice a dramatic improvement in quality when buying on eBay.

Re:From the horse's mouth (5, Informative)

Bert64 (520050) | about 6 years ago | (#23021908)

Except that many of the worst sellers actively use and are supported by paypal...

See http://www.ev4.org/wordpress/category/fastmemorymanscam/ [ev4.org]

Basically if you buy an item from a seller, and it's wrong, defective, etc, paypal will give you a refund but only if you ship it to the seller's "registered" address, using a shipping service with online tracking. Because of this, sellers can register an address in a foreign country, sell low value goods, ship you garbage, and then it becomes uneconomical to send it back so the seller keeps your money.

Aside from the fact that that when selling something, i'd prefer *not* to use paypal, as i have to increase the cost of the item and shipping to cover paypal costs. I much prefer personal collection, i can demonstrate the item to prove it works, and i receive the full amount i sold the item for in cash.

Re:From the horse's mouth (3, Informative)

psychicsword (1036852) | about 6 years ago | (#23022310)

Using paypal doesn't eliminate problems it just reduces the problems and gives you a few tools to resolve them. Also isn't paypal owned by eBay? if so it makes sense that they want it to be required by eBay users.

Re:From the horse's mouth (4, Interesting)

MikeFM (12491) | about 6 years ago | (#23022366)

PayPal sucks for seller's too. They have the bad habit of doing things like deciding to lock your account and refund all your recent transactions without adequate explanation or any means of recourse. Who knows if they actually give this money back to the buyers or if they just keep it.

I for one refuse to use PayPal ever again. I think we need something better than credit cards for buying and selling online but PayPal isn't the solution. It's became very evil since eBay bought it. I've considered creating my own alternative but I think to compete with PayPal and credit cards any alternative needs several major backers such as Amazon and iTunes if it is to have any hope. I'm surprised none of them have formed together to form an alternative as it'd seem they could easily boost their profits by cutting the expense of PayPal and credit card processing fees. If they saved a dime per transaction with the volume they do it'd be a fair savings.

A free, easy to use, well advertised, auction/store + online cash alternative to eBay + PayPal is a killer app waiting to happen. Lots of people hate eBay and PayPal. Lots of alternatives exist but none I've seen are both easy to use and well advertised.

Re:From the horse's mouth (-1, Troll)

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Re:From the horse's mouth (5, Funny)

catwh0re (540371) | about 6 years ago | (#23021994)

Hey ebay,
It was nice hanging with you when we were younger, but since then I can feel we've grown our separate ways. I still remember our first dot com bubble burst like it was yesterday.

But, sadly it seems that you're hanging out with a new crowd these days and you've changed, I can't put my finger on it, but you're somehow different. It seems like you don't really care about me anymore, and you don't seem to have coped very well with some of the new people in town. [ebay.com]
I'm sorry to say it, after all of this time, but I'm seeing someone new [google.com] they're so much quicker and dealing with each individual companies policies still feels easier than dealing with your friend paypal.


I'm sorry it couldn't work out between us.
Signed,
The Internet.

Re:From the horse's mouth (5, Insightful)

eiapoce (1049910) | about 6 years ago | (#23022142)

Read as:
"You have been giving already a lot of money to us. Nevertheless starting 17 june we want to get more money from you, just because we can.

We are so confident that we don't even feel the need to justify it by adding the usual bullshit about security issues with other payments methods.

Take note that the purpouse of these innovations is ultimately to fuck you, our loyal user, in the ass. So you are welcome to join us to discuss your "position" on our Q&A Forums where our dedicated masters will educate you (in bdsm techniques)

For those of willing to submit without futile resistance we will grant some recreational activities including the online brainwashing course on how we did successfully turn a user supported community into a pyramidal scheme lookalike wich will benefit your ebay masters for a loong time"
I guess it's not far away the time when google gets the slight hint of business opportunity.

Re:From the horse's mouth (-1, Troll)

mikkelm (1000451) | about 6 years ago | (#23022320)

What's with people like you who feel the need to deem everyone to be sheep or brainwashed if they're fine with something that you, for whatever reason, don't agree with? Is it self-esteem?

Re:From the horse's mouth (3, Insightful)

dangitman (862676) | about 6 years ago | (#23022362)

Wait, who is "fine" with this bullshit? Not many people outside of eBay/PayPal management, I'd wager.

Re:From the horse's mouth (4, Interesting)

eiapoce (1049910) | about 6 years ago | (#23022372)

I tell you what's up with me.

I honestly sell my used stuff on ebay, and I am constantly discussing matters with buyers. If a problem arises ebay does either nothing or its best to screw me, This happens when I am the buyer and when I am the seller. And when selling even if a problem does not arise I am supposed to pay twice at least for the same item: Listing Fees, Final Value commission, Paypal submission fee.

By reklessly complying with those rules I managed to make 150 positive feedback and a couple of negs... guess where the negs come from? Paypal costumers. Ebay/Paypal on the other hand managed to make 200+â out of me wich is extraordinary unfair since their costs are just website hosting/band and staff. Also they are dropping the feedback system wich will lead the marginal utility of selling through them 0 (Call it costumer un-fidelization)

See any reason to be "not satisfied"?

Paypal blows (3, Insightful)

Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS- (624050) | about 6 years ago | (#23021750)

It looks like it is time to look for alternate online auction houses.

Re:Paypal blows (4, Funny)

Digestromath (1190577) | about 6 years ago | (#23022194)

Might I suggest the auction houses in Darnassus or Thunder Bluff, they generally tend to be underpopulated, so you won't lag out when you visit them.

Oh you meant ones where you can sell real goods? Damn...

Re:Paypal blows (1)

ta bu shi da yu (687699) | about 6 years ago | (#23022354)

Alternatively, I can continue not using online auctioning services at all. I was about to give it a whirl, but I think now I'll give it a miss.

Say goodbye to new business EBay!

Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (5, Informative)

DiSKiLLeR (17651) | about 6 years ago | (#23021758)

Well, I guess its definitely time to look for an alternative, and pull my highly rated account from ebay :(

I refuse to use paypal due to having bad experiences with it in the past.

In Australia i'd say paypal for paying for ebay auctions is hardly use AT ALL since in Australia its far easier and quicker and cheaper to pay using direct deposit with netbanking. That is THE standard pay to pay here. Why use a middle man? And now to be FORCED to use one? I don't think so.

Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (5, Interesting)

packeteer (566398) | about 6 years ago | (#23021790)

I no longer use my paypal account. After getting burned bad by paypal i was done. My paypal account was linked to my ebay account. My paypal account was emptied and left with a negative balance. Had i used ebay again paypal would have just took all the money. Remember people they are not a bank. They are just some people holding onto your money. How would you trust someone you dont know to hold your money?

Maybe you think my story is isolated but read online. Paypal routinely freezes peoples accounts only to never let them have their money.

Check out paypalsucks.com

Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (2)

Shturmovik (632314) | about 6 years ago | (#23021876)

I've never used paypal. There have always been alternatives. I buy and sell on a local online auction site and have never been stiffed by anybody. All transactions are done via online banking (in my case), or by cash (in direct pickups), or via cheques. I don't know of anybody other than eBay users who would even know of PayPal, or how it works and how to use it.

From the things I have heard and read, I would [i]never[/i] even consider using PayPal. Simply not ever. Why take the risk? With a bank, I have legal recourse. But PayPal? No way. If the local auction outfit decide to go PayPal, they'll lose my business and that of many - most - of their other current customers.

Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (5, Interesting)

johnw (3725) | about 6 years ago | (#23022256)

The similarities between Paypal (not a bank) and eBay (not an auction house) are quite marked. They both seem to want to desperately defend there "not a ..." position because it means they can have the benefits without the responsibilities. Like so many others I have long refused to use Paypal because of their shifty behaviour. Until Paypal is a proper bank (with all the safeguards that that requires) and eBay admits to being an auction house (ditto) I won't be using either.

Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (2, Informative)

cbmilne33 (1138783) | about 6 years ago | (#23021918)

In Australia you have Fairfax Media as we do in New Zealand.The New Zealand arm of Fairfax Media has bought www.trademe.co.nz which has similarities to Ebay.It may be possible for them to set up www.trademe.com.au as an alternative to Ebay Australia.

Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (1)

nosfucious (157958) | about 6 years ago | (#23021968)

1 - I never used eBay anyway.
Quote: "Found it in the Trading Post"
2 - I'll absolutely, positively never use eBay now. I might have considered it, but not now.

Just alienated around 80% of their potential client base.

(note: 80% is a wild guestimate pulled out of my arse).

Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (1)

ukoda (537183) | about 6 years ago | (#23022342)

It would be interesting to know if there is competitors in the different countries that could take advantage of this. Here in New Zealand Trade Me is the big player and ebay is a non-event. Trade Me has the advantage you don't have to pay to list, only on a successful sale, but I think it's actually early market domination that has them owning the market here. I think Aussies are currently allow to use Trade Me with some limits but given that it's now owned by a Aussie company (I think) then now might be a chance for them to expand. If they played their cards right I could see that happening in Aussie but other countries may not have anyone ready to take advantage of the change.

Legal status of Paypal? (4, Insightful)

Kupfernigk (1190345) | about 6 years ago | (#23021766)

I refuse to use Paypal because I am not convinced it is covered by banking regulations. These may not be perfect (understatement of year to date) but are surely better than nothing. Can anybody explain to me in what way entrusting funds to Paypal offers any real and accessible legal protection against fraud?

Re:Legal status of Paypal? (4, Insightful)

edwardpickman (965122) | about 6 years ago | (#23021838)

Don't worry they aren't covered under bank regulations and you are largely at their mercy since there aren't specific regulations covering them. I'm amazed the government has turned their back on them since they are functioning as a bank but are unregulated. They scare me and I've canceled my account several times but certain things require them already. I largely let the account stand inactive. If we loose other options with Ebay I'll probably drop them myself. The whole thing is so dodgy I haven't hardly bought anything on Ebay in years. It used to be pretty cool but I don't trust ebay, the buyers or sellers, I've been screwed by all of the above. Just not worth the hassle and risk.

Re:Legal status of Paypal? (3, Insightful)

johnw (3725) | about 6 years ago | (#23022266)

Vote with your feet. I have several times told retailers that I'd like to buy their product but I won't use Paypal. Usually they offer an alternative means to pay. The few who haven't offered an alternative have at least known *why* they lost my business.

Re:Legal status of Paypal? (2, Interesting)

eiapoce (1049910) | about 6 years ago | (#23022160)

Can anybody explain to me in what way entrusting funds to Paypal offers any real and accessible legal protection against fraud?
That's the point. In a normal situation the Ebay feedbacks should protect against scammers and the police should prosecute the scammers. Handling the "protection" job to anyone else than public enforcment is BAD.

I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayPal. (4, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | about 6 years ago | (#23021780)

From a sellers perspective I can see the desire to take other forms of payment, but as a buyer there is massive appeal for the use of PayPal. With how its integrated into eBay it makes conflict resolution much simpler and gives you a means of tracking and proving receipt of funds.

The only thing I would want to see added to the service is an escrow option. But the idea of sending a wire transfer, check or money order to some unknown entity on the internet sounds like a bad idea.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

DiSKiLLeR (17651) | about 6 years ago | (#23021796)

Except paypal fucks the sellers.

I sold an item for over $1000 USD on ebay. Recieved payment by paypal. Sent item off. Payment went into bank account.

A few weeks later paypal contacts me saying that I was paid using a stolen paypal account, and to please return the money.

How about, ummm, get fucked? To this day paypal still wants to get this money back from me, so I refuse to use them. Its not my fault paypal has terrible security and lets everyone's accounts be phished and sellers get screwed by this?

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (2, Insightful)

Kenja (541830) | about 6 years ago | (#23021822)

What do you think would have happened if it had been purchased with a stolen credit card, check book, etc? Same thing. PayPal is not acting any different then any other group in that position, in fact the have a legal responsibility to do what they do. Ownership of stolen funds or goods does not change when they change hands for a second time. Pawn shops get burned in this manor a lot.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (5, Informative)

freedom_india (780002) | about 6 years ago | (#23021846)

Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.
As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
Nobody.
Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

Kenja (541830) | about 6 years ago | (#23021858)

No. If you receive stolen funds, you are under a legal obligation to return the money.

"If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it."

In this case, you are the merchant. You dont get to keep the stolen money. Sorry.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (4, Interesting)

freedom_india (780002) | about 6 years ago | (#23021902)

Not exactly. When a credit card holder disputes a debit, the bank contacts the merchant first and asks him to verify the debit he made. It also gives the merchant details about who disputed what, etc, plus a specific time.
Within the time, if the merchant cannot produce proof, the cardholder's complaint is sustained.

At NO time has the bank the legal authority to debit or even block access to the funds in merchant's account.

This is different from paypal, which is under no obligation to contact you, can and will block your account, and withdraw funds from it without due process.

And that is why paypal is different from a bank.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

DiSKiLLeR (17651) | about 6 years ago | (#23021866)

Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.
As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
Nobody.
Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting.
And this is PRECISELY what is the problem with paypal.

Look up paypalsucks.com and other related sites.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 6 years ago | (#23021932)

Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.

Half right. Its almost always the merchant.

And guess what, as the ebay seller, YOU are the merchant.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | about 6 years ago | (#23022206)

my god you people miss the mark by a long shot.

the merchant is the CC company providing the funds.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (5, Insightful)

eiapoce (1049910) | about 6 years ago | (#23022168)

What do you think would have happened if it had been purchased with a stolen credit card, check book, etc? Same thing.
Bullshit. CC companies have insurances against fraud. Once you get the money it is yours. Only exception is that you participate in the scam, in this case you get a prison term, wich is something that paypal is NOT providing to the scammers.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

petermgreen (876956) | about 6 years ago | (#23022304)

mind you credit/debit card companies do the same afacit and from what I can gather at least in the US money from a check can become availible to you before the check has actually finished it's way through the clearing system and the check can ultimately be rejected.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

Phurge (1112105) | about 6 years ago | (#23021828)

Sounds good in theory, but the reality is that Paypal sucks. hard.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

Kenja (541830) | about 6 years ago | (#23021842)

Been using it since its inception and have yet to have any problems. On the other hand I have seen bounced checks, fake/stolen credit card numbers etc.

I know people have had problems with PayPal, and I'm not saying its perfect. However I've yet to see a better option.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

Bert64 (520050) | about 6 years ago | (#23021990)

If someone sends you a cheque, you don't send the goods until it clears. Once it's fully cleared, the bank is at fault for clearing a fraudulent cheque so you keep the money.
If it bounces, you don't ship anything, you don't get charged for depositing a fraudulent cheque, you may get investigated for it but if you can prove how you got hold of it you won't have any negative effects.

To process credit card transactions you need a merchant account, it is the merchant's responsibility to verify the legitimacy of the card. If it's fraudulent and they clear the payment, it's their fault and you'l still get the funds.

You can also receive cash in person, it's your responsibility to ensure the cash isn't fake. If you accept it, it's your loss.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 6 years ago | (#23022082)

To process credit card transactions you need a merchant account, it is the merchant's responsibility to verify the legitimacy of the card. If it's fraudulent and they clear the payment, it's their fault and you'l still get the funds.

Er... if -I- get a merchant account, -I- am the merchant. So if a fraudulent payment clears then if its the merchants problem, that would make it MY problem.

You are seriously deluded if you think otherwise. Just go ask any merchant... (ie walk into any store or restaurant and ask them who foots the bill if they accept a stolen card. They're ALL merchants with merchant accounts.)

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (1)

Alpha Whisky (1264174) | about 6 years ago | (#23022162)

Note that "fully cleared" isn't when the money hits your account, it's about two weeks later when the cheque has been presented to the issuing bank.

The cheque fraud scammers rely on this and the bank WILL claw back the money. You're right that you probably won't get charged for depositing a fraudulent cheque in good faith, but you won't get to keep the money. At least that's how it works in the UK and US.

Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022114)

What does PayPal offer over credit card? Other than lacking legally mandated fraud protection...

Is Ebay out for suicide? (5, Insightful)

mcrbids (148650) | about 6 years ago | (#23021788)

Ebay's success comes because it's a moderator - a broker in a sale. It connects two parties together, and nothing more. When it does that, Ebay is golden. It's UI is nice, it's search feature generally works, and that's why it's a multi-billion dollar corp.

But if they cram paypal down my throat, I'll swallow something else. I'm already at the point where Ebay is my LAST resort, since their ratings have been so thoroughly gamed I have no idea who I'm really dealing with, anymore.

Forcing paypal? No way. I refuse. What's the next halfway decent auction house? Truthfully, I've already moved much of my online purchasing to froogle.com....

double dipping? (3, Insightful)

unfunk (804468) | about 6 years ago | (#23021794)

That's fucked up. So now, not only do I have to pay eBay a fee for listing my item, I also have to pay PayPal a fee to get my money? No thanks.

PayPal is not a Bank (3, Interesting)

freedom_india (780002) | about 6 years ago | (#23021798)

Firstly, although PayPal may have a banking license in switzerland, it is not a bank per se and the Australian Reserve Bank will not guarantee my money with paypal if any.

Secondly, As a bank i have recourse to my money when i demand it. Period.
With paypal i have to jump through many of their fraud hoops which assumes, as a recepient, am guilty of money laundering unless i prove myself to be innocent. That is not how a bank operates. And if a bank will not pay a lawfully presented demand for payment, i can force the bank into liquidation single-handedly. (Long before that the Reserve bank will intervene, but that is beside the point).

Thirdly, PayPal does not follow banking laws in opening accounts with it. Not even in fact the [in]famous SNOW accounts of Citi in early 1980s in US (Negotiated Order of Withdrawal).

Fourthly, if PayPal goes under, who will repay my money with them.

I think the ARb should intervene and either force Paypal to be a "bank" (which is unprofitable for them), or close down.

Re:PayPal is not a Bank (1)

Arancaytar (966377) | about 6 years ago | (#23021948)

force Paypal to be a "bank" (which is unprofitable for them)


They are a bank. Have been since around 2004, I think. Am I missing something?

Re:PayPal is not a Bank (2, Informative)

asnare (530666) | about 6 years ago | (#23022172)

Firstly, although PayPal may have a banking license in switzerland, it is not a bank per se and the Australian Reserve Bank will not guarantee my money with paypal if any.
The Australian Reserve Bank doesn't appear to guarantee money with any banks. To quote a recent new article [news.com.au]:

There is a widespread perception in Australia that bank deposits are government-guaranteed, but the system instead relies on rigorous oversight of banks and other deposit-taking institutions.

Re:PayPal is not a Bank (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022232)

Two points:
Paypal Australia Pty Ltd is an Authorised Deposit Taking Institution (the umbrella term covering banks, credit unions and building societies) according to APRA:
http://www.apra.gov.au/ADI/ADIList.cfm#PB [apra.gov.au]

There is no explicit guarantee (by the RBA or anyone else) on deposits held with banks or other ADIs in Australia, although it is often assumed that if one of the banks went bust, the government would bail them out.

Ebay screwing itself (2, Insightful)

EdIII (1114411) | about 6 years ago | (#23021810)

I already canceled my account since they were forcing me to provide PayPal as a payment option. I really don't understand this. There are SO many people that just don't trust PayPal, So MANY horror stories that PayPal has a stigma against it. Even people that have PayPal now and have never been burned complain that PayPal in addition to the eBay fees cuts into their profits margins too much.

I will never create a PayPal account to take money from people. I just won't do it. So now I cannot sell anything on eBay anymore. Well if eBay can survive just from the Power Sellers, then that is what will happen, but it won't be a place for the average joe to sell his stuff.

I must also say that since eBay burned me and pissed me off, I have not even searched eBay for any products in over a month. I use to check pricegrabber.com, pricewatch.com, cdw.com, and a few other sites in addition to eBay. I don't even check eBay at all now.

Good Luck eBay, your going to need it.

Sourer Grapes (2, Interesting)

pilsner.urquell (734632) | about 6 years ago | (#23021820)

I have a bother that worked for eBay from the beginning. He loved it until they bought PaPal and credits the move with his eventual leaving eBay.

Competition laws (5, Insightful)

mikechant (729173) | about 6 years ago | (#23021824)

If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets.

If they roll it out in the EU, this could fall foul of competition laws; the credit card companies/banks could presumably complain of being shut out, given Ebay's near total dominance.

(Obvious the same could apply in other countries, but the EU currently seems keenest on actually enforcing competition laws.)

Re:Competition laws (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23021986)

Funnily enough, I thought the Australian government was also pretty serious about anti-competition laws.

I'm hoping for (not necessarily expecting) a massive smackdown by the ACCC [accc.gov.au].

Re:Competition laws (1)

Vapula (14703) | about 6 years ago | (#23022198)

In Europe, I think the "forced bound sale" prohibition could also be used...

They sell two services : EBay (sellers have fees to list items + fee on the money amount) and Paypal (where you've a fee whenever you get some money). Binding them would be quite illegal AFAIK...

As a seller, I NEVER propose PayPal, I got burned once with the extra costs and Banking in Belgium is very easy (net-banking, self-banikng, phone-banking, ...) I guess they are pushing their "monopoly" a little too far...

Alternatives (3, Insightful)

Meneth (872868) | about 6 years ago | (#23021836)

So, let's build a list of alternatives.

Re:Alternatives (1)

falsemover (190073) | about 6 years ago | (#23021896)

buy new online - you get new latest model stuff rather than old crap, and you won't pay much more for.

Re:Alternatives (2, Insightful)

Chrisq (894406) | about 6 years ago | (#23022030)

I think that people that want to sell "old crap", or as they would say "quality pre-owned items" that are complaining about ebay.

Besides, I have brought a number of good, cheap items and my wife has had some exceptional deals

Re:Alternatives (1)

falsemover (190073) | about 6 years ago | (#23022072)

I find the computer / electronic goods totally overpriced on EBay.

I visit discount stores online like newegg.com and check out the prices on some on the cutting edge gear and then it all becomes clear why I don't buy this stuff on EBay. I've bought about 12 electronic things on ebay - besides being old model, more than half of it was defective or substandard in some way.

After throwing a lot of gear out I resolved to buy new online. Ebay think they have us by the Aussie short and curlies becuase we pay outrageous retail prices for electronic equipment in Australia. The real scam is that you can buy international, have it shipped, and still save a bucketwad of money over retail. But don't tell anyone, they may try and tax it. Cheers

Re:Alternatives (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 6 years ago | (#23022098)

I would agree with you on this. Where ebay wins is on private sales, particularly of women's clothes and jewelry. Some people will buy an expensive to-brand garment, decide they don't like it, and sell it after wearing it once at a fraction of the new cost.

Computer equipment gets cheaper in real terms, so you see poor fools trying to flog a five-year old laptop for 2/3 of what he paid for it, when you can buy brand new computers with a better specification for less.

Re:Alternatives (2, Interesting)

falsemover (190073) | about 6 years ago | (#23022204)

I buy all my "fashion" from second hand clothing shops and "op shops". Far cheaper than ebay as I don't get stung with postage for each item.

Oh, my girlfriend would "never" buy second hand clothes. She thinks I'm a tramp for doing it. But hey, I spend about $300 per year on clothes as compared to about $3k.

Re:Alternatives (4, Informative)

Chrisq (894406) | about 6 years ago | (#23021938)

I have found some good reviews of the following, and they all look cheaper than ebay.

http://www.specialistauctions.com/ [specialistauctions.com]
http://www.52marketplace.com/ [52marketplace.com]
http://www.cqout.com/ [cqout.com]
http://www.ebid.net/ [ebid.net]
http://www.tazbar.com/ [tazbar.com]
http://www.oneway-uk.com/ [oneway-uk.com]
http://www.avabid.com/ [avabid.com]


I have only had a quick look at each, http://www.ebid.net/ [ebid.net] seems to have the most comprehensive items list from a buyer's point of view

Re:Alternatives (1)

tonywestonuk (261622) | about 6 years ago | (#23022250)

I think we should pick just one out of the list... (Come up with a good criteria, rate each one, go for the best). it needs to be just one so that the site can attain enough critical mass to overtake Ebay.

If its mandatory it should be free (4, Insightful)

Chrisq (894406) | about 6 years ago | (#23021844)

If its mandatory, make it free (for use on payment for ebay items, charging for other uses is OK). How can they justify a double charge?

Re:If its mandatory it should be free (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23021958)

Why should they justify it? they don't have to if they call the shots. What I don't understand is how this is legal, its not quite the same as a shop not offering mastercard but accepting visa, ebay aren't the vendor, just the intermediary, so they are mandating the mode of a transaction of two third parties, which I'd have thought was anti-competitive.

Clearly theres one simple driver, unfortunately our knobless lawmakers will yet again stand around and do what they do best, nothing (especially now the communists are in power, though it makes little difference ...)

Can anyone say.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23021850)

..."monopoly money"?

Ebay is going way way down under (3, Insightful)

falsemover (190073) | about 6 years ago | (#23021872)

I've already emailed a complaint through their contact system. I've had many happy transactions trough bank transfer from both a buyer and seller perspective. This is the ENTIRE reason for the rating system - so you know who you are dealing with before the transaction. I will cancel my account tomorrow and simply buy new over the internet. With the overshopping that goes on on ebay, I'll probably even save some money and get new stuff rather than second hand. Ebay is going the way of Microsoft, way way down under.

Of course.. (5, Insightful)

nitelord (824762) | about 6 years ago | (#23021878)

"If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets." Of course they'll be successful, all other modes of payment are barred!

Tangent --- (2, Insightful)

Phurge (1112105) | about 6 years ago | (#23021900)

Taking a slight tangent, but I think this is a prime example of one the web 1.0 heroes turning evil. The original management have ceased running the show and we have new management wanting to eke out every dime possible using strong-arm tactics like this one.

Contrast this with Amazon, Google & Yahoo whose operating ethos is still relatviely benign (especially when compared to Microsoft or Apple). Getting to my point... I think Google at the moment is not evil, but you can bet your bottom dollar when Larry & Sergey leave the stage, Google will turn evil, just like Ebay.

Not just Australia (4, Interesting)

mattbee (17533) | about 6 years ago | (#23021914)

In the UK (3x as many people as Australia) I got an email to say that Paypal *must* be offered as a payment option, not that it must be the only payment option. So I imagine they are testing different policies in different smaller markets. It makes sense to try to streamline it and get a few more % of each sale - eBay is still complicated compared to Amazon's sales process and Amazon seem to get away with taking almost 10%.

hmmm. (4, Insightful)

apodyopsis (1048476) | about 6 years ago | (#23021924)

blam! the sound of eBay shooting itself in the foot.

as a buyer paypal has some good points - limited protection, traceability, etc.

but as a seller it sucks big time as just adds another set of fees to your sale.

eBay nicks nearly 5-10% of the sale price including paypal.

if they made paypal free and just part of the eBay service then there might not be so many arguments, but to enforce it and then make additional money is such a blatent money grab that this will backfire big time.

buyers may like it, but if there are no sellers then there will be no buyers. it will be interested to watch how the number of items for sale changes in ebay.au after this is enforced. anybody know how we can plot a graph of items for sale vs. date to track the impact?

I'm guessing that there will be such a negative impact in .au that they will not dare make the same change to .com .co.uk etc.

from eBays point of view they are being pressurized to add more traceability into their system by law enforcement worried about fraud and fencing - so they are really between a rock and a hard place here.

one thing is certain - behind every internet giant is a number if "would bes" who will seize every opportunity to steal business, so eBay will have to tread carefully here.

ACCC can determine this is anti-competitive (4, Insightful)

ivi (126837) | about 6 years ago | (#23021934)

Doesn't eBay -own- PayPal...?!?

Well, forcing your customers to use your subsidiary company (or any supplier, for that matter) sounds pretty anti-competitive to me... and - if the Aussie comtetition watchdog barks loudly enough, eBay may have to play fair again.

I'm sure credit card vendors will scream "Fowl!" soon...

Re:ACCC can determine this is anti-competitive (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022316)

Mod up, that was my first thought. An as paypal takes a percentage cut, it is a tied, and discriminatory service.

The second issue, regards offer, contract and payment, and there are strict laws prescribing payment, such as they MUST accept cold hard government printed cash/folding notes.

Third, Discrimination.

Then as Australia has 7 sets of laws, each State/Territory may decide to pass laws to Auction related sites.

Ebay Australia has bigger problems - Cost is so high, some local traders are listing on Chinese ebay, which I presume has a lower take. One believes ebay should charge less for secondhand goods and spare parts - otherwise 'un-green' practices follow.
A free option is allclassifieds.com.au

Shooting themselves in the wallet (2, Insightful)

DaveDerrick (1070132) | about 6 years ago | (#23021936)

I hope they will do this, and then realise thats its a big mistake when customers go elsewhere. Its a great opportunity for a competitor to steal some of their market.

Is this illegal? (2, Interesting)

lewko (195646) | about 6 years ago | (#23021956)

I understood that by law, merchants are required to accept legal tender to pay a debt. In other words, there's no way they can prohibit people paying cash once a debt exists (i.e. they have one the auction).

Admittedly the above is from my recall of High School business studies, and IANALADHAT (I am not a lawyer and damned happy about that).

Re:Is this illegal? (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 6 years ago | (#23022034)

That may be why the option of "cash on collection" is allowed. I have no idea about Australian law, this is pure speculation.

Re:Is this illegal? (2, Interesting)

xaxa (988988) | about 6 years ago | (#23022302)

There is no debt. There is an offer to sell, and the offer requires payment with PayPal, but there's no debt. IANAL either.

Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23021962)

Anything that decreases use of eBay is positive in my eyes. I await the entrepreneur whose business is 24/7 dedicated to scraping listings from all classifieds, auction sites, and newsgroups (consider a header X-Promote-Me-Please: yes) rather than just the big firms as with Froogle/Pricegrabber/etc. Let eBay become a broker for "power sellers" and let those who sell second hand as one-offs, enthusiasts, collectors, and other people really *interested* in what they sell go elsewhere.

FWIW, I have consistently found that those who only accept Paypal are the worst sellers, because they are high volume, interested in streamlining a process to the point that
  • You're unlikely to be able to make useful, timely communication on the item;
  • You're confronted with a list of T&Cs as long as your arm, inevitably written by someone with no idea of the law;
  • In the event that anything goes wrong, you're basically fucked. These people almost always have +ve feedback of 98-99%, indicating that if things go right, you're fine, but if things go wrong, they simply won't cooperate. And remember eBay Rule Number Two(*) is "give them negative feedback if they give you negative", so 1% bad feedback on a high volume seller reflects a far higher proportion of dissatisfied buyers.


(*) eBay Rule Number One has something to do with overuse of punctuation*****!!!!!!!!! *RARE*

meanwhile... (2, Interesting)

SharpFang (651121) | about 6 years ago | (#23022002)

eBay Poland is still dead.

After introducing fees for their auctions, they dropped from their 3rd place with a good chance to become 2nd to being somewhere along with the two last places - auction sites that are subject-specific, collector auctions. Very few desperate sellers use it, and over 90% offers 'from Poland' are listed as 'e-book, electronic delivery only, free shipping world-wide', foreign auctions.

The article is wrong - maybe. (0)

lewko (195646) | about 6 years ago | (#23022010)

According to the Slashdot post and TFA upon which it is based:
"eBay is using Australia as a guinea pig to trial a new policy where all other modes of payment are barred except for PayPal."

However, according to eBay's own memo [ebay.com.au]:
"From 21 May 2008, all items listed on eBay.com.au must offer PayPal as one of the payment methods available to buyers."

So which is it?

On the one hand, there's nothing to see here. On the other hand, the response from eBay's Alistair McGibbon (source of possibly the lamest superhero quote [slashdot.org] of all time) doesn't seem to repudiate the reporter's understanding.

Re:The article is wrong - maybe. (1)

Cougar_ (92354) | about 6 years ago | (#23022096)

However, according to eBay's own memo [ebay.com.au]:
"From 21 May 2008, all items listed on eBay.com.au must offer PayPal as one of the payment methods available to buyers."
And... if you RTFA you'll see that's EXACTLY what it says, but CONTINUES on to say that, "From 17 June you will only be able to offer PayPal on your listings and pay on pick up (i.e.paid for when picking up the item)."

Re:The article is wrong - maybe. (1)

laron (102608) | about 6 years ago | (#23022130)

If you follow the link on the memo "Learn more about the changes on eBay.com.au"
You will learn that from 17 June on:
All items appearing on eBay.com.au must be paid for using either:
    - PayPal
    - Visa/Mastercard (with transactions processed
                by PayPal)
    - Pay on pick up (i.e. paid for when picking up the item)
No other payment methods will be accepted.

Re:The article is wrong - maybe. (2, Informative)

goatherder23 (1189859) | about 6 years ago | (#23022166)

Correct, from 21st May Paypal must be one of the payment methods. But, and I quote the email sent by eBay, "From 17 June you will only be able to offer PayPal on your listings and pay on pick up (i.e.paid for when picking up the item)." This, by omission, excludes direct bank deposit, cheque and money order, all of which are popular and very much cheaper than Paypal.

Anti-Trust issues? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022040)

Ebay is pretty much THE auction site on the net, and they own paypal. this sounds like leveraging a monopoly in one market to effect an advantage in an unrelated market and anti-competitive behaviour to me.

the EU has given microsoft plenty of shit over the years for anti-competitive behaviour, it will be interesting to see if/what kind of flack ebay attracts over this.

Wow, that'll stop me using eBay, period. (3, Interesting)

Peregr1n (904456) | about 6 years ago | (#23022074)

I use eBay occasionally but my email address and bank details are barred from PayPal, so if this happens I won't be able to use eBay at all.

I'm barred because I (as a seller) was scammed and left £300 out of pocket - when I tried to complain to PayPal, I couldn't even get through to a human being, and they automatically assumed that I was the fraudster, and shut down my account. Ironically, they were slower at shutting down the scammer's account on both eBay and PayPal, despite my attempted warnings, and they went on to scam a few other people before they were finally barred.

By the way, is there a decent alternative to eBay, or have they got a complete monopoly?

creators advise planet/population rescue mandatory (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022132)

the lights are coming up all over now. get ready to get real. see you there? let yOUR conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_sc/ye_climate_records;_ylt=A0WTcVgednZHP2gB9wms0NUE [yahoo.com]
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080108/ts_alt_afp/ushealthfrancemortality;_ylt=A9G_RngbRIVHsYAAfCas0NUE [yahoo.com]
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A [nytimes.com]

is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying [google.com]

dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html [cnn.com]

the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real yet? please consider carefully ALL of yOUR other 'options'. the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available. 'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet, & by your behaviors. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable. some of US should consider ourselves somewhat fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc.... as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis. concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order. 'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

meanwhile, the life0cidal philistines continue on their path of death, debt, & disruption for most of US. gov. bush denies health care for the little ones;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html [cnn.com]

whilst demanding/extorting billions to paint more targets on the bigger kids;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html [cnn.com]

& pretending that it isn't happening here;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3086937.ece [timesonline.co.uk]
all is not lost/forgotten/forgiven

(yOUR elected) president al gore (deciding not to wait for the much anticipated 'lonesome al answers yOUR questions' interview here on /.) continues to attempt to shed some light on yOUR foibles. talk about reverse polarity;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3046116.ece [timesonline.co.uk]

I'll cancelled my account (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022148)

I'm just a buyer, never sold anything, but will cancel my account out of principle

Alternatives? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022174)

Anyone else here in aus have some ideas for good ones?

ebay alternatives in Australia (1)

nutbar (138893) | about 6 years ago | (#23022196)

This was all over the afternoon papers as well.

The big question though - what are the decent alternatives to ebay in Australia?

james woods (1)

woods01 (1259134) | about 6 years ago | (#23022226)

*giggles* hey ebay isn't the only ones using the .au as a testing ground. The .au has been a testing ground for alot of things, such as being dis-armed. We see all the good that has done watching the police videos with the cops being kicked around because they can't even defend themselves. As much as I hate paypal, I do find it useful when everything works. However when issues arise you might as well forget it. Paypal is still the best form of Payment to use on Ebay since it's all interconnected. Using another method of payment on ebay is generally alot of wasted time since ebay won't work with other processors.

Re:james woods (1)

comm2k (961394) | about 6 years ago | (#23022288)

Paypal is still the best form of Payment to use on Ebay since it's all interconnected. Using another method of payment on ebay is generally alot of wasted time since ebay won't work with other processors.
What a load of rubbish!
Here (in germany) you can add bank account details to the auction which will be visible for the buyer. He can than do a direct bank transfer via online banking only minutes after buying the item. The actual transfer takes 1-3 days, or if both use the same bank its usually instantaneous. This doesn't cost the buyer nor the seller anything. Its free, fast and much much much more secure than Paypal will ever be. Wait till Paypal decides to freeze your account - then you'll learn what waste of time really means.

Bye-bye! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 6 years ago | (#23022236)

Good-bye, eBay. (Once you roll this out here, that is.)

overseas payments? (1)

spandex_panda (1168381) | about 6 years ago | (#23022254)

My 0.02 paypal is good for a buyer, bad for a seller. It makes the transaction very quick and painless, I have purchased things quite consistently off ebay, and I prefer dank deposit as I have complete control. But Paypal is instant, it takes around 3 clicks and a password rather than around 12 clicks, a username and password and security and 3 or 4 copy and pastes for bank deposit.

I agree with others above that the fees for paypal are a bit rich, since you pay a percentage to ebay already, then if you sell something small, less than $100 or so they charge you a dollar to withdraw your money! It all adds up.

The other good time for paypal is for foreign transactions where it costs a LOT to do a bank transfer to overseas and you need much information, paypal is very easy (although they rip you off on exchange rates also...) I think it is definitely wrong to make Paypal the ONLY way to pay and doubt it will stick.

no way no how (2, Informative)

timmarhy (659436) | about 6 years ago | (#23022260)

paypal is so fucking annoying, i signed up with them once and had to go through all the 5c deposit and registered mail crap.

i simply can't be ass'd doing it again, easier to just use gray's online or something.

bye bye ebay (1)

SuperDre (982372) | about 6 years ago | (#23022278)

I wonder why they choose only to go with paypal.. At least for me that would mean no more buying via eBay.. I don't have a paypal account, and I'm not planning on getting myself a paypal account..
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