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TiVo Patent Victory Over Dish Network Upheld

CmdrTaco posted more than 6 years ago | from the last-ditch-efforts dept.

186

Thomas Hawk writes "An appeals court today shot down Dish Network's last chance to avoid a multi-million lawsuit verdict won by TiVo over their time shifting DVR technology. In addition to having to pay TiVo a minimum of $92 million, Dish Network will also now have to honor a court injunction to turn off DVR software to most of their customers. I hope Dish Network customers like commercials with their daily dose of Dr. Phil."

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Unlikely (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046196)

since no drivers are available for Linux.

Re:Unlikely (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046444)

That's extremely misleading. You can get the monitor and mouse to work sometimes. I've heard stories of Linux hackers printing things up, although I've never seen an actual printout that originated from a Linux machine.

Re:Unlikely (5, Informative)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048162)

Replying to this to get a post near top:

DISH WILL NOT have "to turn off DVR to most of its customers". Anyone using the 622 or 722 (what they ship now as their DVR offerings) is NOT affected. Software was upgraded months ago specifically to get around the patent. If you have a far older DVR, then all this means, is you'll get a free upgrade to the new model, rather than paying for it. A pain in the ass though the patent is, a travesty this is not.

Mmm, pimping your own misleading blog FTW! It's not like many people in the comments of his own blog entry he submitted didn't point out this RATHER MAJOR DISCREPANCY... but oh noes! Removing scaremongering does not help pageviews, does it?

the more the lawyers play, the more the people pay (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046230)

is it just me, or does it seem that the law is more about money than justice?

it sure looks like professionalism these days means cheat your country and screw society

The shit's going to hit the fan (5, Funny)

JonTurner (178845) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046252)

Americans are a complacent lot. They'll tolerate taxes and fee increases, regulation, government snooping, abridgement of century-old (and God given) rights, etc. with maybe one in ten thousand even bothering to pick up a telephone or a pen and contact their congressman or senator.

But if you fuck with their television, you'll see angry roving mobs take to the streets that make "21 days later" look like a tea party. I suspect this will not end well.

I tried (3, Funny)

OMNIpotusCOM (1230884) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046280)

I was trying to think of something really witty to say, something that would totally make the parent rethink their post and question their whole thought structure on Americans... but all I could come up with was this Family Guy quote:

"Who touched the thermostat?" ...how sad is that?

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046364)

We already accept DRM. And in the very near future we'll be blocked from recording or timeshifting some programs and we'll just shrug our shoulders and accept it. This is how IPTV will "revolutionize" television.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046424)

No, we don't accept DRM...that's one reason Vista is dying. That and the abysmal performance.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (2, Interesting)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047506)

I disagree. Blu-Ray and HDMI and HDTV and IPTV are all hot technologies with consumers right now and all have very intrusive DRM.

I think Vista is having trouble in the market because consumers perceive it as incompatible, slow, unstable and annoying (with its attempts to protect users by using a million dialogs). Vista will win out despite consumers because Microsoft has the strength to force a noisy minority to comply. (it's a significantly large minority though!)

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (2, Informative)

Jonner (189691) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047796)

You're painting with some very broad strokes there. I receive completely DRM-free and free of cost HDTV broadcast all the time. AFAIK, the FCC neither requires nor allows any kind of DRM on ATSC broadcast, though it has been threatened and defeated (hopefully indefinitely) in the form of the "broadcast flag."

Also, IPTV does not refer to any particular system or standard, but just the general approach of sending TV over IP. I don't know how many different IPTV systems there are, but there are probably some that don't use DRM.

Just to nitpick: HDMI doesn't require HDCP all the time, which is why you can plug an HDMI display into a DVI output using a simple converter cable and you can plug a DVI display into an HDMI output as long as the signal is not HDCP encrypted.

However, I do agree with your main point that DRM is becoming more pervasive and most people buying into it are completely unaware or apathetic. Because I'm opposed to DRM on grounds of principle and because it limits my DIY options, I get my TV and movies from broadcast ATSC and DVDs (the DRM is inconsequential) instead of digital cable and BluRay. When bypassing BluRay DRM is as easy to bypass as CSS, I'll get some of those. Of course, the former options are a lot less expensive too, and I like saving money. I am very aware that not very many people are going to limit their options like I do.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048192)

I may be wrong, but I believe you can do HDCP over DVI without too much concern, presuming there's accurate and complete support in your firmware. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (2, Insightful)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046516)

You accept DRM. Acting on the presumption that the consumer is a criminal before the fact is ample evidence that the system - not the consumer - is broken.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (4, Insightful)

Cheesey (70139) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046686)

If he does, then he's not in the minority. I bet 99% of the people who read this post are XBox, PS3 or Wii owners: I think the DRM on those systems is tolerated so widely because it just works. Even nerds who understand the implications are willing to buy into it.

Some people object to DRM on ideological grounds, but not many. It's like free software versus commercial software. You can decide to use only free software because it fits your personal ideology, but most people use a mixture of free and non-free software. If good free software doesn't exist for a task, then they pay up. Equally, we would all prefer to have no DRM, but we can tolerate it if it means we get to do something that we wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (4, Insightful)

fyngyrz (762201) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046780)

Use is not synonymous with acceptance. Toleration or passivity in the face of it is; personally, I'm active in a number of ways, from not allowing DRM of any kind on the commercial executables we produce, to creating PD software that demonstrates the fallacy of the GPL type of approach, to pestering my representatives to stop creating legislation that presumes citizens are criminals absent probable cause, oath or affirmation, and warrant. I donate to causes that support this view, and speak against causes that criminalize legitimate action.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (4, Insightful)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047544)

As long as you continue to replace DVD players with Blu-Ray players. And continue to upgrade your equipment to DRM-enabled versions, you are accepting DRM. As long as there demand for DRM there will be supply. And providing demand is acceptance when alternatives exist and are actually cheaper.

Alternative to HDMI - component video, dvi
Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)
Alternative to iTunes - DRM-free MP3 download(amazon, etc), CDs that are not protected(harder to tell)

ps - try as we might, we will not be able to defeat the GPL empire. I do MIT license and PD software. But it just gets bundle with a bunch of GPL stuff anyways. GPL's model always wins even if it's the wrong model.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

Jonner (189691) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047638)

So, what's the "right model?" I like FLOSS because it's about freedom and choice for both author and user. When I choose to use a FLOSS package, I don't prefer one licensing model over another, but if I were creating one from scratch, I'd choose the license that was most appropriate for the intended use, which might be GPL, LGPL, or a BSD-like one.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (2, Funny)

multisync (218450) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047778)

Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)


It's DRM none the less, and it is (if I'm not mistaken) a felony to circumvent that DRM in the US. Also, how many VHS tapes are available for rent or sale at your local video store? Watch as studios slowly squeeze out the DVD and force those pesky "consumers" to "upgrade" to Blue-Ray.

Alternative to iTunes - DRM-free MP3 download(amazon, etc), CDs that are not protected(harder to tell)


Sure, if you live in the US. Amazon does not sell MP3 downloads to foreign countries. I've read about other services, but none that I have seen offer either the convenience, price and selection of iTunes. If anyone can recommend an alternative that doesn't require me to pay a monthly fee (I prefer ala carte, thank you) and offers a decent selection outside of the US, I'd love to hear about it.

You are correct about CDs, and I encourage people to continue to buy them for the superior (to iTunes, anyway) audio quality and for the peace of mind that you can rip 'em, put them in a plastic storage bin in the basement and they will likely still be available to be re-ripped if necessary in the future. Until, that is, drives that are able to play CDs become as scarce as drives that can read 5-1/4 floppies.

(btw, I still have my old Akai turntable and every vinyl album I ever bought, but most suffered irreparable damage at the hands of a dumb-ass teenager who didn't appreciate how precious his music collection would be to him in his old age).

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048296)

Alternative to HDMI - component video, dvi

The alternatives are not as good and not as cheap as the geek makes them out to be.

HDMI is one cable for digital audio and video. HDMI 1.3 has a bandwidth of 340 MHz. High-Definition Multimedia Interface [wikipedia.org]

Costs are $1 a foot to lengths of 100 ft.HDMI Cable [monoprice.com]

Alternative to Blu-Ray - DVD (which has laughable DRM)

The computer Geek thinks PC quality video.

The guy who puts $5-$25K into HT is thinking theatrical quality projection and sound.

Netflix isn't charging him a premium for the Blu-Ray rental. If he owns a PS3 he owns a Profile 2 Blu-Ray player. The Blu-Ray disk is 50 GB today and 100 GB tomorrow.

100 GB of professionally recorded mp4 video that doesn't have to be downloaded over a snail-slow and fragile P2P link. 100 GB that doesn't take a big bite out of his media server or DVR.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

theaceoffire (1053556) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046820)

While it is true consoles are heavily drm'd, some suffer more than others.

For example, the 360 downloadable items are locked to the console, account, and I believe the hard drive (Not sure).

So when it RRoD's, you can only play the content you own by having internet.

Meanwhile, the PS3 allows you to download your game to 4 other PS3s.

Does that make up for all the drm? Maybe, maybe not. But some consoles are more open than others. Hell, I can even install another OS to the PS3 if I so choose, and upgrade the hard drive using standard components. The cords it uses are usb2 and any such cords work, it can handle external hard drives and 3rd party mouse, keyboard (Blutooth or usb).

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047372)

I bet 99% of the people who read this post are XBox, PS3 or Wii owners: I think the DRM on those systems[...]
I did not realize the fact that I couldn't take my Wii games and play them on my Mac constituted DRM. :P

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

harlows_monkeys (106428) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047896)

Some people object to DRM on ideological grounds, but not many

And I object to many of those objectors on ideological grounds.

* They say things like DRM is slavery, and if I were to dare to buy, say, a Kindle, I am helping promote slavery. That's an insult to all the people who have been victims of actual slavery.

* I'm an adult. I can look at the terms of, say, Amazon's DRM (to continue using the Kindle for my examples), and weigh the conveniences the device offers, vs. the risk of being screwed if Amazon pulls a Google and cancels the service with no refunds, and the annoyance of not being able to loan books to friends, and so on. The ideological DRM objectors seem to dismiss my adulthood, and want to treat me like a child who has to be protected from making the "wrong" decision and willing buying a DRMed product. They are no better than those who want to "protect" me from seeing porn on the internet, or from finding heretical books in my local library.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

aplusjimages (939458) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046428)

I have to disagree. I think you're thinking of alcohol.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046578)

What's the point of the beer if you aren't watching the big game? Trust me, you screw with TV and you'll even have the alcohol companies marching in the streets....

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (2, Insightful)

noidentity (188756) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046450)

I know you joke, but it's the truth. Why else do you think the government organized a huge coupon program to help people get the converter boxes? And kept pushing back the changeover date as well...

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046562)

Corporate lobbying.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046610)

Americans are a complacent lot. They'll tolerate taxes and fee increases, regulation, government snooping, abridgement of century-old (and God given) rights, etc. with maybe one in ten thousand even bothering to pick up a telephone or a pen and contact their congressman or senator.

Tell that to the English and the Germans.

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (1)

headkase (533448) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046728)

As the "Dead Kennedys" so aptly put it: Give me convenience or give me death!

Re:The shit's going to hit the fan (2, Funny)

deblau (68023) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048664)

But if you fuck with their television, you'll see angry roving mobs take to the streets that make "21 days later" look like a tea party.
I live in Boston. We can get pretty angry at our tea parties.

Dish DVR (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046284)

FYI this has no effect on anyone with a newer model Dish DVR, i.e. they aren't going to take it away from you. New software was pushed out 6 months ago to replace the infringing software. If you have a real old one, now is a good time to upgrade.

Re:Dish DVR (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046404)

IMHO, Dish should have licensed the Tivo technology and been done with it. If the software that Dish's DVR uses is "fully functional" then I guess I'm a dummy tech dork.

It took me a long ass time to figure out how to add a single TV show to record a season and I'm not sure it even did exactly what I wanted. My 60 year old parents have no idea how to use it aside from pausing, rewinding and watching the terrible "howto" video.

Re:Dish DVR (2, Informative)

danielsfca2 (696792) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046898)

I don't know about you or your parents, but our Dish DVR wasn't hard to use in the slightest. It was far superior to the crap Comcast pushes.

And I'm sure plenty 60-year-olds, no offense intended towards my elders, couldn't figure out how to do more than pause and rewind on TiVo either.

(I've never had a TiVo because I refuse to pay $15/mo for the rest of my life for a few kilobytes of guide data. When I moved to a no-dish apartment, I built a PC-based DVR that kicks ass).

Re:Dish DVR (1)

Brad Eleven (165911) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047870)

Bethinks the AC speaks of the newer, non-infringing version, and that Dan refers to the older, Tivo-like version.

I agree: it sucks to have to pay a fee ($5/month for DirecTiVo, which is crippled, blah, blah, blah), but the interface is nice, there are multiple hacks which are time-tested, and no one's coming down on the hackers. Okay, they're clobbering the hacks with software upgrades, but there are workarounds for this.

I feel the same way about the TiVo suit that I did about the 1987 Microsoft suit: It's a shame that this had to be done with law. It's the right thing to do, though.

I completely agree that Dish could/should have licensed the technology: It would have saved money, time, and trouble in the long run. I completely believe that the TiVo framework would make a very good industry standard.

I don't completely get the DRM involved, but I know of several ways to circumvent it. I used to use the analog hole, now I just snag the digital streams and convert to whatever format I prefer on that particular day.

I absolutely don't get the broadcasters' mental constipation on this issue: It's *broadcast* quality, digital or not. Even HD broadcasts are not that great because they arrive after having passed through a satellite or over miles of cable or fiber.

I think that broadcasters believe that digital means "perfection" because it costs more and because they're mostly pampered idiots surrounded by yes men. I would expect that most readers of these forums agree that digital technology is a hedge to simplify error detection and correction, and that there is no attainable perfection.

Re:Dish DVR (1)

Dahamma (304068) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047868)

IMHO, Dish should have licensed the Tivo technology and been done with it.

You don't know Echostar. Charlie Ergen [wikipedia.org] would never license what he could get away with stealing...

new software was pushed out 6 months .. (1)

rs232 (849320) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046504)

"New software was pushed out 6 months ago to replace the infringing software"

Like where does it say that, do you have any citations. If as you say new software was pushed out then why did they lose the ruling and why are they appealing.

"Dish is now saying that they actually will appeal this verdict all the way to the Supreme Court"

Re:new software was pushed out 6 months .. (2, Informative)

Teran9 (1163643) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046546)

You can look up the press releases from Dish that say that they have updated their software. They are appealing because they don't want to have to shell out the bucks for past transgressions.

Re:Dish DVR (3, Informative)

Burgundy Advocate (313960) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046672)

Actually, 'next-generation' software was pushed out for all models. Nothing is going to stop working. The article description is highly incorrect.

No, likely not true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047842)

No, Dish lawyers are *claiming* that new software doesn't violate the patents, but what credibility do they have?

Look at the evidence:

(1) They are still claiming their original software doesn't violate the patents
(2) TiVo patents are quite broad and I would imagine difficult to work around
(3) No Dish customers have reported any issues or changes to the operation or capabilities of their DVR

This is quite obviously a lie by Dish lawyers which they will have the burden to prove.

Re:No, likely not true (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048222)

Wow, bias much. Patents are often disputable and subjective, especially "quite broad ones". The patent ties to functionality and implementation. So no UI changes means, frankly, not a lot.

"Quite obviously a lie", really? "Burden to prove"? Uhh, you're full of shit, AC. "Balance of probabilities". When did patent law become criminal?

Its not going away (2, Insightful)

WaHooCrazy7 (1220464) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046286)

Dish DVR is not going away, it's their old software that violated the software patents. Their new software does not violate the TiVo software patents. This new software was pushed out by Dish about 3 months ago. Very misleading article.

Re:Its not going away (1)

waterwingz (68802) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046564)

Pet peeve - you infringe somebody's patent - not violate it.

Re:Its not going away (3, Funny)

rajafarian (49150) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046716)

Pet peeve - you infringe somebody's patent - not violate it.

Yeah but violating it sounds funnier.

Re:Its not going away (2, Informative)

mr_matticus (928346) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048596)

Actually, infringement is one method of violation, so you do both. Infringement is more specific and usually the case with a patent claim, but violation is not incorrect.

Responses (5, Informative)

ArkiMage (578981) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046288)

Tivo's:
http://investor.tivo.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304285 [tivo.com]

Dish's:
http://dish.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=304293 [shareholder.com]

The latter includes these tidbits:

The decision, however, will have no effect on our current or future customers because EchoStar's engineers have developed and deployed 'next-generation' DVR software to our customers' DVRs. This improved software is fully operational, has been automatically downloaded to current customers, and does not infringe the Tivo patent at issue in the Federal Circuit's ruling.

"All DISH Network customers can continue to use their DVRs without any interruption or changes to the award-winning DVR features and services provided by DISH Network.

"We intend to appeal the Federal Circuit's ruling to the United States Supreme Court."

Re:Responses (3, Interesting)

BACPro (206388) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046478)

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

It would seem that it is SOP for a manufacturer to EOL a piece of equipment. Tell the users they need to upgrade. There will be some gnashing of teeth, some users will flee, but if the new product is better... Some people need a shove to move on.

Having said that, I would be pissed off if someone told me I had to abandon a perfectly functional piece of kit and upgrade. I sure a community of terrorists that have hacked their own distro of Linux onto it to maintain functionality could be found. Someone would do it because they could.

Any idea how this affects Bell Express Vue in Canada? I notice about 3 months ago we received new software that did more things that were TIVO like. Record all eps, record all new eps, priorities and so on...

Re:Responses (4, Insightful)

1729 (581437) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046542)

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?
It might have something to do with the $92M judgement.

Re:Responses (1)

Teran9 (1163643) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046552)

They want to appeal because they don't want to shell out the bucks.

Re:Responses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046882)

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court? Why do people keep asking this? You aren't the only one. Even the blurb says, they will have "to pay TiVo a minimum of $92 million." Since when wasn't that much money worth fighting for?

Re:Responses (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047098)

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court? Because the courts have valued the use of TiVos patents for the time that Dish was using them without permission at $92 Million. The appeals process is all they've got to avoid, or maybe just delay making that payment. Just because you've stopped doing the illegal act, doesn't mean you get away with what you did in the past.

Re:Responses (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047202)

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

The appeal to the Supreme Court is routine. The denial of cert is also routine. The Supremes take on only the 150 or so cases each year that they think are genuinely worth their time.

Re:Responses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047260)

So this is why they stealthed that piece of shit upgrade on me. Since they did the f*cking thing has failed to record the shows I want to watch about half the time. No error message, no warning, just no show when I get home.

Re:Responses (2, Funny)

vtcodger (957785) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047438)

***Since they did the f*cking thing has failed to record the shows I want to watch about half the time.***

I'm pretty sure that someone -- Verizon? Microsoft? -- has a patent on not doing what is requested about half the time. Another patent infringement? Dish's patent problems may not be over.

Re:Responses (1)

magicchex (898936) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048932)

You're thinking of Comcast.

Re:Responses (1)

siwelwerd (869956) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047560)

If DISH network has corrected the problem with a new software download, why do they need to pursue this to the US Supreme Court?

Because it's a lot cheaper than paying TiVo $92 million

Re:Responses (1)

symbolic (11752) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047500)

I wonder if this would affect other content delivery services like Comcast.

RTFA (4, Informative)

mrsam (12205) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046314)

No, Dish can (and if you RTFAed, they will) appeal to the Supremes.

But, true, Dish has a tough hill to climb. The Supremes only accept a small percentage of all appeals. Dish's goose is mostly cooked.

Re:RTFA (1)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046786)

I found the original article somewhat interesting as it stated that the rulling was absolutely final with no chance of appeal. Which as anyone would know is not the case as there is always the option of an appeal to the Supreme court.

In ordinary cases this would not be very likely to succeed, but the SCOTUS has already accepted an appeal on a similar patent issue. And it is very likely that this will be decided in a maner that would affect this case.

But any journalist who was familiar with patent law issues would know about this which means that this 'article' amounts to nothing more than stenographic press release journalism. They received a press release from Tivo and printed it without checking anything. So all we are seeing here is the Tivo side of the story and they are not exactly a very credible source.

Tivo's financial situation is not exactly impressive. They cannot afford to refuse to license the technology.

Re:RTFA (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048312)

The 'article' was written by the submitter for his blog, and contained glaring errors of fact, so I'd take it with quite the grain of salt.

SCOTUS (1)

jhoger (519683) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047738)

And the Supremes answer would be something like "love don't come easy."

Sigh. I guess we'll "just have to wait."

This will just make tivo look bad (1, Interesting)

fahrvergnugen (228539) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046316)

Shutting down the DVRs for Dish Network would be the stupidest thing that Tivo could do. Dish PR just says "It's Tivo's fault," puts something out on a wire service, someone picks up the story that Tivo made Dish network but not DirecTV or Comcast shut down their DVR's, and bingo, Tivo are the bad guys even though they're the ones protecting their stolen IP from another company. Licensing is just as much in Tivo's favor as it is Dish's at this point. Letting the Dish shutdown happen would be a fiasco.

Also, does this have ramifications for other disk-based DVR's such as those offered by cable companies and DirecTV?

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (3, Insightful)

OrangeTide (124937) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046376)

Knowing Tivo they begged and pleaded for months to get Dish to pay for a license. Either Tivo asked for too much or Dish was uncooperative.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

sleigher (961421) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046616)

I don't really get any of this. Wasn't Dish offering DVR functionality before Tivo was even a company? And aside from that if it is a software patent, how did Tivo get to see the code to know that it is infringing? Wouldn't they have the same complaint to DTV, Comcast? Didn't replayTV also have DVRs before Tivo? Why does Tivo get to sue over the DVR?

Doesn't this start to sound like Chevy suing Ford for having wheels in their design?

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (3, Interesting)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046772)

I'm rather biased against Echostar, having worked there briefly. Dealing with their HR department several years later to obtain some records was just as unpleasant as actually working for them was. I usually get knowing nods and comments from recruiters whenever I discuss it, so I know it is not just me who has had these sorts of problems with them.


If their legal department is anything like their HR department, talking to them was pretty much useless. I'd be surprised if Tivo had any recourse other than to sue them. Although I hate software patents and think that many DVR-related ones are completely retarded (TV Guide has one for the guide grid format, for example) I can't suppress a certain amount of glee that this misfortune has fallen upon Echostar. So I'm just going to point at them and go "Ha-ha!"

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (2, Insightful)

PuckSR (1073464) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047028)

Yeah, but knowing Dish Network...they probably weren't interested in paying someone for technology that they developed.

The entire patent is bogus. Tivo combined time-shifting with a digital storage device and an on-screen guide. Hmmm. Time-shifting is not patented by tivo. Digital storage of video is not patented by tivo. Dish Network and DirecTV actually hold prior art on the on-screen guide. This seemed like a fairly obvious usage of common technologies.

Remember. Dish Network is the same company that turned all Viacom channels off for a few weeks because they didn't want to give in to pushy business practices by Viacom. I am not saying this is good or bad, but I am saying that Charlie Ergen(Dish CEO) has big testicles.

So, I doubt it was that Tivo asked for too much money. I think the fact that TIVO asked for money at all would have put them off.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

symbolic (11752) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047524)

I am not saying this is good or bad, but I am saying that Charlie Ergen(Dish CEO) has big testicles.

An appearance vs reality problem - I think you meant to say that he thinks he has big testicles. I see this as the root of most of the stupid things that men do.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

omeomi (675045) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046596)

I thought DirecTV already used TiVo brand DVRs?

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (2, Informative)

chris234 (59958) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046654)

DirecTV used to, but that's irrelevant as this is about Dish Network.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

BLKMGK (34057) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046868)

They used to, they are now moving to an MP4 format for some of their HD with plans to move all of their HD to it eventually. The DTIVO boxes will be unable to decode this and their HD boxes will also be obsolete. I was going to move to HD but refused for over a year after getting an HD TV because I didn't want to be trapped in this morass (I had DTIVOs). I ended up waiting long enough that FIOS came along and saved me - I now have a TIVO HD and CableCards - very happy!

I have now had two friends BEG me to fix their DTIVO boxes when drives have gone bad. See when you contact Direct they send you their own PVR as a replacement - it sucks! So after a week or three of dealing with it MY phone rings with a buddy begging to have me try to repair it. So far it's all been HDD issues and I've been successful, I also have a closet of old receivers if worse comes to worse.

So yeah, Direct was smart and signed licensing but fucking stupid to not continue to license and use the full software. I was with them for over 5 years and with DISH for as long before that until I discovered what a joy PVRs were (had\have a replay). I'd have stuck with them too since I happen to hate Verizon but they left TIVO and I left them - and said as much when retention tried to keep us. Oh well!

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

BLKMGK (34057) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046814)

Umm, Direct has some licensing going on and ComCast has also licensed TIVO software from TIVO and is starting to load it on some of their own DVR STB hardware with future plans to roll it out. As for making TIVO look bad, TIVO built some innovative software and patented it. DISH *knew* this, even looked at their software to use it themselves maybe, but afterwards decided to build their own. Like them or not the software patent was there and DISH infringed, worse they built SHITTY software for which I left their service and got a DTIVO from Direct until they fucked up. Now I use a TIVO HD on FIOS, love it. ComCast and Direct are in the clear, TIVO has their asses and they have been trying to bleed TIVO dry in hopes of not paying - their time is running out.

It's easy with 20:20 hindsight to say that all of this stuff is obvious and shouldn't have been patented. Usually the person who says this didn't manage to think of it themselves first though. I agree that software patents are an issue but if TIVO didn't have them then one of the first guys to build and innovate in this market would've been long gone by now replaced by lots of mediocre clone boxes from the various "providers". I obviously love TIVO despite some of their more questionable moves and my dislike for software patents.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047046)

Tivo already looks bad. First off, DVRs are a pretty deadly obvious invention. Anyone who saw a computer play video and a VCR record off the TV could have come up with the idea. Tivo came out at the time when hard drives became cheap enough to make recording TV feasible. That's it.

But in any case, Tivos are buggy, ad-laden pieces of crap. Fast forwarding through a show? Ads will pop up. Finish watching a show? Ad on the screen. Bringing up the Tivo menu? Up to three ads on that one! Looking through the list of recorded shows? Ads.

If Tivo service were free I wouldn't care about the ads, but it's not. You're expected to pay for it.

Then there's the bugs. I've had to routinely reboot my Tivo to get minor things like audio and video playback to start working again. (Thankfully recording was still working in the background.)

Tivo routinely tells you that a group with several items in it is either "no longer necessary" or "empty" and forces you back to the menu to re-select it and watch the shows. (The "no longer necessary" misfeature is supposed to kick in if the only remaining shows are "suggestions" but it also kicks in randomly.)

The menus can take ages to update. Delete a show and it occasionally remains on the list until you reload the list. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The "record new showings" feature is amazingly broken. I've given up and now have a total of four "manual recording" slots to get Tivo to record only first-run Daily Shows and not the massive number of repeats that Comedy Central shows.

The thing that really pisses me off is that from what I hear, Tivo is actually better than the DVRs offered by most cable companies. Given that Tivo is a buggy piece of ad-laden crap, I'd hate to see what other DVRs are like.

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

Roger W Moore (538166) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047076)

Also, does this have ramifications for other disk-based DVR's such as those offered by cable companies and DirecTV?

Can you even buy disc based DVRs in the US anymore? I was visiting the in-laws at christmas and thought I'd pick up a cheap DVR in the US (given the the US$ is so weak compared to the Canadian at the moment) and could not find one anywhere. Best Buy, Wal-Mart, some local Albuquerque shop - nothing and the same on their websites.

A few years ago in Chicago they were all over the shops and they are still easily available in Canada and Europe. I wondered at the time whether there was some bizarre US patent problem...and I'm guessing that there is. If you need evidence that your patent system is hurting you here it is: the rest of the developed world is enjoying technology you cannot buy (unless you pay an inflated price plus a monthly subscription to Tivo).

Re:This will just make tivo look bad (1)

AimHere2000 (1112185) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047350)

Can you even buy disc based DVRs in the US anymore? I was visiting the in-laws at christmas and thought I'd pick up a cheap DVR in the US (given the the US$ is so weak compared to the Canadian at the moment) and could not find one anywhere. Best Buy, Wal-Mart, some local Albuquerque shop - nothing and the same on their websites.


I just saw one at Walmart the other day. Think it was a Philips. I believe it had a 160-GB hard disk, as well as a SDTV digital tuner.

TiVO is fighting a dying battle... (0, Troll)

MindPrison (864299) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046368)

The idea of recording live-tv, shifting it so you can watch it anytime wasn't solely invented by TiVO, many Amiga users and Apple users have been using this technology LONG before people got "TiVO.

Today - In Europe (where we don't have TiVO, at least in Denmark) we use TimeShift recorders from JVC, Panasonic, United...heck...I even have a SONY myself - best thing next to buttered bread, can't do without it - to imagine that some "American court" could come in and force the companies worldwide to deactivate their TimeShift function just because TiVO says so...is ludicrous and it will NEVER EVER happen. I Skip ADS all the time with the timeshift function, TiVO can go sc*** themselves.

Re:TiVO is fighting a dying battle... (1)

RalphSleigh (899929) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046426)

Like he said, decoupling the DVR from your television provider would be a great thing. Here in the UK you are free to choose a freeview DVR, or just a converter box, but sky and cable come with their own.

walking distance record to be broken by US? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046370)

take a walk, ride a bike, save some lives. let yOUR conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_sc/ye_climate_records;_ylt=A0WTcVgednZHP2gB9wms0NUE
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080108/ts_alt_afp/ushealthfrancemortality;_ylt=A9G_RngbRIVHsYAAfCas0NUE
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A

is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying

dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html

the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real yet? please consider carefully ALL of yOUR other 'options'. the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available. 'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet, & by your behaviors. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable. some of US should consider ourselves somewhat fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc.... as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis. concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order. 'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

meanwhile, the life0cidal philistines continue on their path of death, debt, & disruption for most of US. gov. bush denies health care for the little ones;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html

whilst demanding/extorting billions to paint more targets on the bigger kids;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html

& pretending that it isn't happening here;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3086937.ece
all is not lost/forgotten/forgiven

(yOUR elected) president al gore (deciding not to wait for the much anticipated 'lonesome al answers yOUR questions' interview here on /.) continues to attempt to shed some light on yOUR foibles. talk about reverse polarity;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3046116.ece

Re:walking distance record to be broken by US? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046638)

Dr. Bronner, is that you?!

Die, TiVo (-1, Flamebait)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046670)

TiVo did nothing non-obvious. Their main "innovation" was being the first to widely market an idea that had just recently become feasible, but didn't offer anything I hadn't already seen people doing with TV tuner cards. Screw them for trying to own an entire industry through coercion.

I will never voluntarily give them a penny. They got greedy and burned their bridges. In 5 years when TiVo is out of business, they're going to look around pitifully trying to figure out how this could have happened, unable to realize they brought it upon themselves.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

DragonTHC (208439) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046756)

if you actually owned a tivo, you wouldn't be saying any of that. Tivo really provides a better dvr experience than any other. That and dish network decided they didn't want to deal with tivo in the beginning. So they just made their own bed.

kudos to tivo for protecting their business.

Re:Die, TiVo (-1, Flamebait)

danielsfca2 (696792) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046944)

Oh really. What does TiVo do that so deeply affects all these TiVo fanboys?

Every time we have a story on this TiVo topic, you guys come out of the workbook saying they're the lone exception to the standard (and correct) /. policy of "software patents are retarded."

WTF is TiVo putting in your Kool-Aid? I'd like specific examples of why TiVo is so inherently superior in ways that are non-obvious enough that I would agree a patent is warranted.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

stevenliv (1127811) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047152)

The main reason is because Tivo is a standalone DVR. It is pretty much the only standalone DVR in the USA right now. Cable and Satellite providers want you to rent their DVRs, and they can charge whatever they want. Consumers should have a choice, which the providers do not want.

Re:Die, TiVo (4, Insightful)

TooMuchToDo (882796) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047324)

Perhaps it's that Tivo "just works"? If I wasn't gainfully employeed and had tens of hours a week to burn, I'd get a MythTV box. If I wanted to be frustrated all the time when watching TV, I'd get a Comcast DVR system. Tivo's benefit isn't software, or the guide data, it's usability. Those of us with disposable income don't mind paying $15/month to have all of our shows waiting for us and not having a problem when we try to watch them.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048380)

Funny, my 722 DVR from Dish just works, "New Episodes", hit record when I find the program in the guide, ability to search the guide by genre, keywords, actors, etc... And it only costs $6 a month. I can see how I'm being shafted, true enough.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

BLKMGK (34057) | more than 6 years ago | (#23046916)

Nothing non-obvious? So then you thought of it first? Wow! Oh wait - you didn't?! Then sit down and shut up.

I've seen\used the other DVRs that are apparently also using the same "obvious" ideas and they SUCK while using a TIVO is actually pretty good. Gee, why is that? Could it be because TIVO has had incentive to innovate and not just give us a VCR with the tape swapped for a HDD? Perhaps because they are divorced from the service providers tit and have to work to get customers?

I like my service providing companies hungry thanks. Wake me when a providers "PVR" is worth a shit.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047124)

I've seen\used the other DVRs that are apparently also using the same "obvious" ideas and they SUCK while using a TIVO is actually pretty good.

How does that relate to the "Time Warp" patent (#6,233,389)? This patent is actually rather narrow and describes low-level implementation details that are totally invisible to the user. The claims are, IMO, obvious to an average developer, but they are worded in such a way that it's not hard to come up with a slightly less obvious implementation that doesn't infringe. The fact that EchoStar put out a software update that works around the patent supports this.

You're talking about the quality of the GUI and menus, which have nothing to do with this litigation.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047216)

Nothing non-obvious? So then you thought of it first? Wow! Oh wait - you didn't?! Then sit down and shut up.

Yeah, I did. Well, not me personally but the guys I went to college with in the mid 90s. They had cable fed into TV tuners and streaming to drives, controlled automatically by TV listens off the Internet. This was an obvious convergence of 1) TV tuner cards, 2) fast-enough processing at affordable prices, and 3) cheap-enough storage. TiVo came along and boxed it all up, then patented what other people had already been doing.

Re:Die, TiVo (2, Informative)

vrmlguy (120854) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047460)

Well, not me personally but the guys I went to college with in the mid 90s. They had cable fed into TV tuners and streaming to drives, controlled automatically by TV listens off the Internet. This was an obvious convergence of 1) TV tuner cards, 2) fast-enough processing at affordable prices, and 3) cheap-enough storage. TiVo came along and boxed it all up, then patented what other people had already been doing.
Except that you haven't described TiVo's patent. They cover using a circular buffer so you can watch while you're streaming, without saving to a file.

Even thought I own a DishNetwork receiver, I think that TiVo was right to get their patent and Dish Network shouldn't have fought as hard as they did. TiVo isn't a bunch of patent trolls; they built and marketed hardware which other people copied.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

mrsbrisby (60242) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047172)

... but didn't offer anything I hadn't already seen people doing with TV tuner cards.
Really? I didn't see anyone using their TV cards to pause and rewind live TV. Can you point to some software that existed prior to 1997 that did this?

Otherwise would you shut the fuck up please?

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047246)

I didn't see anyone using their TV cards to pause and rewind live TV. Can you point to some software that existed prior to 1997 that did this?

$ cat /dev/video > /var/spool/movie.mpeg&; xanim /var/spool/movie.mpeg

Excuse me while I run out and file for a patent.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

mrsbrisby (60242) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048504)

$ cat /dev/video > /var/spool/movie.mpeg&; xanim /var/spool/movie.mpeg

Excuse me while I run out and file for a patent.
bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'

Or did you meant not to be taken literally?

Patents can't protect a goal; the fact that you can meet a goal in another way doesn't infringe on the patent. What constitutes infringement is if they do it the same way, and since TiVO actually worked, while your idea only worked in theory, I'd say that they are different methods. It also is probably relevant that TiVO's method uses a circular buffer such that /var/spool/movie.mpeg doesn't grow without bound.

Of course, if I'm wrong, go offer your plan to Echostar. I'm sure that if you could prove to a judge that TiVO's idea existed and was trivial (perhaps with more time than you give to this reply) you'd probably be very valuable to them.

The other side you should be aware of is that I'm probably not wrong. You didn't have this idea until after 1997, and while you might be able to reinvent many (or even all) of the things TiVO did then, that only demonstrates that the implementation is trivial, not that the idea is.

Seriously, the implementation of a light bulb is trivial, but a Judge would laugh at you if you suggested the idea.

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

sponga (739683) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047618)

Ummmm wouldn't it be more like 'In 5 years when TiVo is out of business, the owners will all be sipping margaritas in Costa Rica living off all the money they made and say how we could bring this upon ourselves again.'

Just take a different look at the world.

Re:Die, TiVo (3, Informative)

netringer (319831) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048050)

TiVo has patents on the "jump to tick" on the timeline and the 8 second jump back among other things.

No. Those features DID NOT exist until Tivo came out with them, and you won't see them on any other other PVR - due to the patent.

TiVo's UI and remote and functionality is the absolute best thought out.

I'm going to have to give it up soon, thanks to DirecTV and TiVo divorcing, and TiVo deciding to diss legacy (Lifetime) customers with the removal of discount rates for additional units.

I really hate that situation.

I'll be signing with AT&T UVerse as soon as they get my house address listed as green in the database. I wish they used CableCARDs so I could keep my HD TiVo. *sigh*

Re:Die, TiVo (1)

AaronW (33736) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048182)

A ton of the patents are also held by ReplayTV, which came out just before Tivo. Replay was recently purchased by Direct TV, which is an interesting move since Replay and Tivo cross licensed their patents since neither one could produce a box without infringing on the other's patents.

I also like the interface on my Replay boxes, unfortunately the company stopped making their set-top boxes and never addressed HD, but the features were great (and even their early models had the 8 second skip back and 30 second skip forward).

I have a friend with the Dish PVR and the software on it was quite nice.

When I get around to upgrading everything to HD I'm not sure what I'll do about a DVR. Sadly none of them will match some of my favorite features of my current one (i.e. automatic commercial skipping). Plus, I want one where I can download the content onto my PC like I can with my current one.

I'd set up Myth TV in an instant, but as far as I know it will not record any of the encrypted shows (i.e. sci-fi channel) on cable.

Re:Die, TiVo (1, Funny)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048394)

OMG! The "8 second jump back"! What an amazing, novel concept! Hold us back, lest we froth at the mouth at this momentous innovation!

Ye gods. I'm beginning to think TiVo broadcasts subliminal messages.

Re:Die, TiVo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23048126)

Sounds like a statement by somebody who has never even glanced at TiVo's patents. Good work trying to spread an entirely ignorant position.

PlU5 2, Troll) (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23046956)

No new cards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047158)

I hope this $92 million dollar settlement will prevent Tivo from rolling out new nagra cards. It might buy us a few more years of easy piracy. Thanks Tivo.

Re:No new cards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047780)

QFT!!!

True Justice is not Negotiable (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#23047256)

WOW! The courts deserve a round of applauds. Ergen political and economical power did not erode the justice system. It is time to start seeing SERIUOSLY the threat that, our technology is taken. Echostar can not be an example for the Chinese, Japanese and other countries of stealing technology and get away with it. The fact is, that without protection for our tech patents and rights, it will be easy to replicate the hard work of our tech inventors and innovators-- by technology depredators. For instances, I could just copy Yahoo, or Google front-page formats and make it my own. EASY, but not too fast Dish buddies. I do not think the Supreme Court justice is negotiable.

I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap (1)

gearloos (816828) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047474)

Hey! In all these years, my first real /.rant! Naw probably been a few before. This explains why the sudden change to a less intuitive, absolutely illogical, bloated software they pushed out a few months ago. Never did figure out what the new "feature" named DishPass was anyway. Some way to record things I don't want, in ways I don't like. Nice. I wondered why, after years of my DVR doing things the way I liked, it suddenly turned into a big smoking pile o cow dung! Unfortunately for Dish, this new information won't stop the change I've already put in motion. I am going MythTV/Fedora and cable. Screw Dish and the 5.95/Month fee for the pleasure of using the DVR the I ALREADY OWN! Never thought I'd go back to cable but ohh well. Theres always the Canadian Freesats.

Re:I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap (1)

PenGun (794213) | more than 6 years ago | (#23047776)

Just stick a SAT card in yer machine and google away. The info is not well hidden and you too can have it all. Dish is easy.

Re:I wondered why my DVR suddenly worked like crap (1)

Achromatic1978 (916097) | more than 6 years ago | (#23048404)

You own the Dish DVR they gave you? Really? How much did you pay for it? Where's your receipt for it? You pay a fee because you RENT the fucking thing. I'd love to see your argument when you cancel your service. "Oh no, I own the DVR, you can't have it back".

Guess what? BUY a TiVo, then, and enjoy the FEE then for using a DVR you ACTUALLY OWN.

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