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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

All very valid points. I don't mean to paint Hamas as some crew of saints, nor do I mean to suggest that the UN's various agencies are well-run. However, to argue for the complicity of UNRWA is premature at best. What motives would the UN have for protecting Hamas or acting against Israel? I'd argue that Mr. Gunness (as well as the UNRWA and UN in general) are in a bit of a shitty position. Humor me a moment and assume that these UN folks have nothing but the best intentions. They're out there, lives at risk, underfunded, trying to enable the kids growing up in these shitholes to have some semblance of an education. And every time they turn their backs, assholes stash rockets in their schools. Of course, this jeopardizes their entire effort by making them look like fools at best, enablers of indiscriminate violence at worst. Naturally, if this were the case, we'd expect Mr. Gunness to do anything in his power to sweep this inconvenient truth under the rug, not out of any nefarious sympathy for Hamas and their cause, but simply to protect his own mission to help impoverished children. Or maybe you're right and there's some insane conspiracy at the UN. Personally, since I have no direct experience with Mr. Gunness or the UNRWA, I'll resort to Hanlon's razor (never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity) to favor my explanation over yours. That being said, your explanation is equally plausible.

I'll tell you my friend, that war is hell, and Hamas purposely makes it more hellish for the citizens of Gaza so that Hamas can reap the propaganda benefit of world outrage when photographs of dead and injured children appear in the news media.

Indeed. But that's why it's even more important to resist attempts at embellishing their depravity. Hamas does enough inarguably horrible things that we don't need to make questionable claims about them (like alleging a conspiracy between them and the UN) that could cause reasonable third parties to say "There's some batshit crazy claims being made about Hamas, so how do I know all the other horrendous things I hear about aren't falsehoods as well?"

And I'll tell you further that the humanitarian restraint demonstrated by Israel time and time again heartens me that it is possible for humanity to stand on a higher moral ground even in the midst of bloody war against an enemy whose tactics are immoral, are in fact, evil.

This is something I can't understand. An overwhelming majority of people that denounce Hamas then turn around and defend Israel in the same breath. Personally, I'm very critical of both, having been exposed to incontrovertible proof of war crimes on both sides. Note, I don't attempt to argue for any sort of moral equivalence, mostly because I find it to be a disheartening exercise when the horrors run so deep on both sides (not to mention the lack of reliable reporting by unbiased third parties). I invite you to step away from the "us v them" mentality that is so pervasive in this conflict and accept that it's okay to abhor Hamas without loving Israel. Denunciation of either side is not the same as support for the other. I agree, Israel is demonstrating restraint. They could just march through Gaza killing every last brownskin, and they haven't. But in some sense, Hamas has also shown restraint, since they haven't slaughtered every last Palestinian infant to manufacture even more footage of "Israel's bloodlust" for the evening news. The fact that both sides could go further in their depravity doesn't comfort me much, and I wouldn't really call that humanitarian restraint.

It brings me no joy to tell you that the IDF have been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, having them enter structures ahead of IDF troops, often with IDF soldiers resting their rifle barrels on the shoulders of the Palestinians. They've been using Palestinian civilians (Johnnies) to "clear" the houses of neighbors when the presence of armed militants is suspected. They've been using white phosphorous against civilian targets. I understand that this is war, but even in war, there are laws. If we can condemn Hamas for flagrantly violating these laws, we can and ought to hold the Israelis to the same standard.

Of course, it wouldn't be hard for you to respond with valid allegations of horrors committed by Hamas. Even greater horrors than the Israeli ones I just mentioned. And then I could go find other evidence of Israeli malfeasance. And on and on we can go. Think for a minute: where will this lead us? The same place we've been heading for the last few decades. Nowhere. Never will one side be able to win over the other side in debate of whose horrors are worse, simply because subjectivity blinds those closest to the conflict. Ultimately, we must acknowledge that this approach is not and can not be productive. We're engaging in a pissing contest while people are needlessly dying. The only way forward is to acknowledge the reality that both sides are horrible. Once we can have an honest accounting of horrors without each side trying to paint themselves as morally superior and the other side as evil, we might finally have a shot in hell at stopping this madness.

This has been a most interesting conversation for me as well, Swave An deBwoner, and I too get a sense that you're a reasonable person honestly trying to understand the issues rather than to simply propagandize for a terrorist organization that has committed atrocity after atrocity to further their expansionist agenda. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist some friendly ribbing here. Please don't take that last bit seriously, it was intended not to balance against your heavily biased (although in many ways spot-on) opening statement, but instead to illustrate how easy (and useless; Did my words sway your beliefs? Do you think they swayed anyone else's?) it is to demonize the "other" side. I've been posting extensively on this story in an effort specifically to encourage people (on both sides of the argument) to see the situation from new points of view and to feel more comfortable being critical of "their side". After all, if we can't openly acknowledge our own faults (or the faults of our preferred tribe), this whole shit is hopeless.

8 hours ago
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Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Weakest US President ever (571 comments)

Except for this, but you're right, I did misunderstand your comment. My bad.

13 hours ago
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A 24-Year-Old Scammed Apple 42 Times In 16 Different States

NoImNotNineVolt Re:$7142.85 (410 comments)

I was under the impression that ARM Holdings designs chips. They don't even make them, they just design them and license the designs to their customers. If the A7 is an ARM chip but designed by Apple, what makes it an ARM chip? What did ARM do, if not the design?

If Apple just strapped memory, radios, etc., to an ARM-designed chip to make their A7 SoC, I'd argue that an overwhelming majority of the design was still done by the folks at ARM, as turning a CPU into a SoC isn't nearly as hard as making the CPU to begin with.

Although I grant that I could be wrong. Perhaps ARM just licensed the instruction set to Apple, and then Apple went and implemented the whole thing from the ground up. Is that what happened?

13 hours ago
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Don't let the facts get in your way (836 comments)

Hamas has offered to negotiate with Israel. Israel has rejected offers of negotiation and killed at least one thousand Palestinian civilians in the current operation.

See how productive this type of pissing contest is? Are you really so dense that you don't realize a back-and-forth trading of accusations isn't likely to lead to any sort of meaningful resolution of this conflict?

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Radicalization (836 comments)

Care to point out the language in the Hamas charter that identifies the Koran quote as a key element of its policies?

yesterday
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A 24-Year-Old Scammed Apple 42 Times In 16 Different States

NoImNotNineVolt Re:$7142.85 (410 comments)

Isn't that an ARM chip?

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

Yes, I'm sure Hamas is in no way encouraging or endorsing missile attacks on Israel by groups other than itself. That's why it erected a monument [demotix.com] to them. Obviously, they'd love nothing more than to round up those malcontents and arrest them - it's just the Israeli attacks against them in response to those rocket attacks that have prevented them from doing so in the last 13 years.

Your ignorance of the area is astounding. Hamas regularly engages in violence against other groups that may pose a threat to their dominance. Perhaps you think they're just some idealistic Jew-haters, but the reality is that they're a power-hungry political organization determined to dominate Gaza (and greater Israel, according to their charter). You may remember when they routed Fatah from Gaza back in 2006-2007, where hundreds were killed, and thousands more injured. This was not an isolated incident (although it was much larger than any other internal conflicts). Hamas does not generally encourage or endorse independent rocket attacks on Israel as they compromise Hamas' monopoly on violent capabilities. The monument that you link to is a symbol of the resistance against Israel, since rockets are Hamas' weapon of choice ever since the Israeli wall has limited the utility of suicide bombers. I don't see how a rocket monument implies that Hamas wants other groups to challenge their superiority. Indeed, Hamas would love nothing more than to round up their competition and execute them (arrest? ha!). The Israeli attacks on Gaza are the primary reason why Hamas has only partially been able to achieve this goal.

Israel has been delivering such rockets for the last few days now.

Good one. I'm glad to see people still have it in them to make jokes about the killing of hundreds of innocent civilians.

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

I know it's sometimes hard to research the structure of foreign governments, particularly ones that are as unstable as the Palestinian government. To answer your question, yes, I did say that Hamas is the governing body in Gaza (much like, say, the government of New Jersey is the governing body in New Jersey). That doesn't mean that it's the sole governing body there (and, indeed, New Jersey is still governed by the federal government too (as well as county governments, and municipal governments)). Either way, here's what happened to the rockets that you allege were given to Hamas:

[UNRWA spokesman Chris] Gunness said he didn’t see an issue with the handover, because the local authorities who took control of the rockets reported to the Palestinian government in Ramallah, not to Hamas, which heads the government and runs the police force in Gaza.

“According to longstanding UN practice in UN humanitarian operations worldwide, incidents involving unexploded ordnance that could endanger beneficiaries and staff are referred to the local authorities,” Gunness told The Daily Beast in a statement. “Local authorities fall under the government of national consensus in Ramallah. They pledged to pass a message to all parties not to violate UNRWA neutrality.”

“As far as we are concerned, the government that we are dealing with now is the government of national consensus and they have authority over the organization that we dealt with for getting rid of these rockets from our school,” he said. “We handed them over to the relevant authorities, and that organization, as it were, the experts that came and did it, are under the government of national consensus in Ramallah.”

Citation.

From that same article:

The fate of the rockets is now unknown. While the Gaza police is almost certainly under Hamas’ sway, it’s an open question to what degree any individual police unit cooperates with Hamas’ irregular army. An Israeli official said the Israeli government is working now to try to confirm that Hamas had taken back the rockets and put them back into circulation.

Israeli officials and experts told The Daily Beast there is no doubt that local authorities in Gaza, including but not limited to the police, are loyal to Hamas.

See? Perhaps you've only been reading the Israeli side of the news, as their politicians are tripping over each other to continue these baseless accusations, trying to spin suspicion as fact. Their authorities are still trying to confirm their suspicions, but they have "no doubt" about what happened. This further illustrates the need to consult a wide variety of news sources if one seeks to learn objective truth about any controversial subject. Now, perhaps you have some inside information that would shed some light on this issue. If so, you haven't presented it yet. This seems like a good time for me to mention that it's incredibly sad that The Daily Beast (of Newsweek fame) is offering some of the most comprehensive coverage of this issue (as far as mainstream media goes, at least).

The second incident where rockets were found at a vacant UNRWA is indeed problematic, as UN staff were evacuated before the rockets could be properly disposed of. I haven't seen much information about that event in the press, but nothing I've seen would suggest that anyone at the UN gave rockets to Hamas.

The World Tribune article you link to contains factual errors ("The UN did not say how many rockets were found or what was done with them" is inconsistent with the quote from the UNRWA spokesman I provided above), and it seems likely that John Baird's comments refer to reports issued by Israeli politicians. If you're aware of any reports from unbiased third parties that corroborate the Israeli claims, I'm eager to see them.

In the case of the second rocket cache, it is unclear who took possession of the rockets. If I had to guess, I'd say it was probably Hamas or some other militant group that was operating in the area. The UNRWA staff were likely withdrawn out of safety concerns.

And when a news report says, as it often does, that news media were barred (by Hamas) from the site of a blast, do you think it's because Hamas doesn't want them showing the Israeli shell that hit the location, or the Hamas rocket that went astray and hit a Gaza schoolhouse instead of an Israeli schoolhouse?

Probably the latter, but do you feel that this excuses Israel's war crimes? Do two wrongs now make a right?

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

"Hamas Terrorists Fire Rockets from a Gazan School"

I find this sad and dispicable. I tried looking up more information about the rockets that were launched from the Abu Nur school and haven't been able to find much. If you find anything, I'd appreciate if you could share. Most articles on the issue also mention rockets being launched from cemetaries in Gaza. Truly disgusting. I can only hope that the school was actually vacant when this was happening. However, I must mention that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet, and it's not like Israel allows them to establish military bases. An unfortunate consequence of this is that anywhere they launch rockets from is a terrible location. Of course, that doesn't really excuse anything, it's still fucked up that this is happening.

And it was previously two UNRWA schools in which rockets had been found stored, and then returned to their owners by the glorious UNRWA staff.

Returned to their owners? Really? You really fell for that? Please, go find a citation for that. I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised when you discover that the rocket caches that were found were not given to Hamas militants, but instead were handed off to the Palestinian Authority government, which promptly destroyed them. Perhaps next time someone tells you a story that fits your preferred narrative a little too well, you'll be inclined to question it and inform yourself before you go on spreading the great news.

But today it's three

These fucks. I wish I could say I'm surprised. Hamas is one unbelievably fucked up organization.

Ah, but why dwell on the numbers? If you have a cache of rocket bombs, and the school has an empty space next to the kindergarten, what possible harm could there be in storing those rockets in the empty space? It's not like they could blow up or anything.

Sadly, if that actually had happened, Hamas would be scoring one hell of a PR victory, cameras getting close-ups of all the kindergartener body parts littering the area, blaming it on Israel. Thankfully, previous caches were all found in vacant schools, and presumably this one was vacant too. Not that that excuses the violation of UN property.

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem (836 comments)

Israel has shown that they would accept a two-state solution. Hamas has written the destruction of Israel into their charter.

Indeed, you bring up a valid point. Israel has at least pretended to be interested in a two-state solution (although this can be sersiously questioned, what with the attacks the unleashed in response to the formation of a unity government in Palestine, etc.), whereas Hamas has been quite clear about wanting to eliminate any "Jewish State" that exists on land consecrated to Allah. Clearly this won't work.

Don't you believe that Hamas means what it says?

No. I also don't believe that Israel means what it says. A cursory history of international diplomacy should make it clear that one should never believe anyone means what they say. In the context of Hamas and Israel, I'm not even convinced that the senior leadership of Hamas actually harbors any hatred towards Jews. I'm more of the opinion that Hamas is in it for Hamas, and their primary (perhaps only) goal is to gain and retain power. It's entirely possible (and even likely) that they merely stoke bigotry among the Palestinian population to distract from domestic policy failures and give the populace an external enemy to focus their anger on. I see them as more of a power-hungry political organization than an ideological one, and I think such a view goes a lot further in being able to explain their motivations and actions as this conflict unfolds.

Also: ... samharris.org

Great link. My girlfriend sent it to me this morning. I agree with most of what Mr. Harris wrote. The one part that did rub me the wrong way, though, happens to be the very part you quote. Mr. Harris seems to be a reasonable person throughout his essay, but somehow has no problem brushing aside the fact that Israeli soldiers have been using Palestinian civilians as human shields. Consider the outrage when Palestinians use fellow Palestinians as human shields. Imagine the outrage if they were using Israeli civilians as human shields. Now reverse that situation and see how casually this atrocity is brushed aside. What the fuck, Sam?

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Radicalization (836 comments)

The Palestinian Authority exercises sovereignty over 3% of the West Bank and 0% of the Gaza Strip, by land area. Source.

Since population distribution is not uniform, I expect the figures to be different by population. However, it's quite accurate to say that the Palestinian Authority does not rule over Palestine.

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Radicalization (836 comments)

I certainly agree more that Iran is far, very far from a role model when it come to democracy and human rights.

Are you American? I am too (naturalized, at least). Remember that time that we overthrew Iran's democratically-elected government to install our own puppet? I'm just sayin'...

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

Sort of like the "Crips" versus the "Bloods" gangs in the US, eh?

Sort of. Well, it would be more like the Crips versus the Bloods but with the Latin Kings policing the country instead of actual cops. Would it make sense to hold the Latin Kings responsible for attacks launched by the Bloods? Particularly if we didn't allow the Latin Kings to become powerful enough to actually police the other gangs?

Those wacky Palestinian terrorists, one never knows which of them will turn up to launch rockets from a schoolyard.

It seems like you said this half jokingly. However, as far as I can tell, they don't launch rockets from schoolyards. On two occasions, rocket stockpiles were found in two unused school buildings. Rockets were never launched from the vicinity of an active school. If you actually try to research this oft-repeated allegation, you'll find that there's a huge amount of disinformation from both sides. It's disheartening.

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem (836 comments)

But Hamas will literally stop at nothing, while Israel is at least trying to minimize civilian casualties (warning people to get out of buildings, etc.). Hamas won't even honor humanitarian ceasefires [townhall.com].

Don't you see? This very mentality is the very reason that this conflict is so intractable. "Sure, we're not perfect, but look at them!" is all we've been hearing since this whole mess started over a century ago. What you don't understand is that both sides have a virtually limitless supply of counter-arguments. For example, you say Israel is "better" because they at least try to minimize civilian casualties. Is this consistent with that claim? What about this? Are you still so sure about Israeli concern for the sanctity of life? Of course, you'll have no trouble digging up countless stories of horrors committed by Hamas. And so the world turns, and we're back where we started. Nowhere.

Neither side is perfect, but I reject any claims of moral equivalence between the two sides.

No moral equivalence here. But in the end, it is not productive to keep pointing at them to justify further violence on our part, regardless of which side we're talking about. There will be no end to this conflict until both sides can agree that both sides are wrong.

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

Perhaps you're not aware of this, but there are several Palestinian militant groups. While Hamas has a clear interest in establishing and maintaining a monopoly on violent force in Gaza, they have been unable to achieve this goal at least in part because Israel prevents them from gaining too much power.

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Radicalization (836 comments)

Oh definitely. It really doesn't help that that's actually a quote from the Koran. It almost makes me think that all Muslims are inherently bigoted assholes.

But then again, it doesn't take much work to dig up equally appalling crap in the Jewish/Christian Torah/Bible. Deuteronomy 20: 16-18 comes to mind, which explicitly calls for genocide. However, since that passage doesn't make me think that all Jews and Christians are inherently bigoted assholes, I figured I'd extend that same courtesy to the Muslims and their own holy book. If we can overlook the Jews' and Christians' unpleasant shit, surely we can overlook the Muslims' too.

That being said, those Hamas guys are responsible for having committed some truly horrifying atrocities. I'm not talking about firing unguided rockets northward, occasionally striking something of value (after all, what the fuck other options do they have, regarding resistance?). I'm not talking about capturing Israeli soldiers alive (this is what happens in war; would you prefer they killed them first?). I'm talking about indoctrinating Palestinian children with absurd caricatures of Jews to ensure that the conflict can rage on for another generation. I'm talking about gunning down innocent Palestinian families who have no interest in being martyred. Hamas does plenty of despicable stuff (as does Israel). We don't need to twist some Mohammed quotes from their charter to frame them as some kind of madmen (any more than we need to absurdly claim that Israel wants high civilian casualties among the Palestinians). Neither side has any moral high ground to speak of (no claims of moral equivalence here, though), so let's stop pointing fingers to yell "but look at what they are doing!"

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem (836 comments)

I'm not an expert, so I'm just going by Wikipedia. Wikipedia says:

In 1994, Israel granted the right of self-governance to Gaza through the Palestinian Authority.

Wow, 20 years ago. And yet even today, the government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own border crossings. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own territorial waters. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own airspace. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own RF spectrum. That's Gaza, but shit, let's not forget, even the government of the West Bank isn't sovereign, instead existing only as far as Israel allows. The PA government exercises sovereignty over 3% of the West Bank. In Gaza, this figure is 0%.

Hamas's charter prominently features a quote from Mohammed about this (and specificially calling for death to Jews).

I contested this claim in detail here. At the risk of seeming pedantic, no, the Hamas charter calls for violent reclamation of Muslim holy sites and land that was consecrated to Allah/Muslims. If we can be precise with our words, the Hamas charter does not specifically call for death to Jews. It, at best, implies that the killing of Jews will likely be required to recapture the territory in question. Both sides in this conflict are committing enough atrocities that there's really no need to make up falsehoods to cast them in a bad light. Your claim that Hamas wants nothing more than "death to Jews" is particularly insidious because it dehumanizes Palestinians and promotes or justifies their current and continuing oppression.

But even if I accepted that Gaza has very real grievances that are worthy of a state of war, I do not condone the tactics used by Hamas.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean you need to turn a blind eye to the tactics used by Israel.

I don't see how Israel can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual war with Gaza.

Agreed, but I also don't see how Gaza can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual subjugation by Israel.

My point is that both sides are wrong. We need to stop focusing on why the "other" side is "more wrong" and accept that, quite simply, both sides are wrong. Until we can do that, we're wasting time and lives.

yesterday
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A 24-Year-Old Scammed Apple 42 Times In 16 Different States

NoImNotNineVolt Re:$7142.85 (410 comments)

Really? I'll be the first to admit ignorance here. I don't know much about Apple and I won't pretend otherwise. I was under the impression that Apple bought components from Samsung, TMSC, etc. Out of genuine curiosity, can you point me to an IC that Apple recently designed?

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem (836 comments)

Congratulations, you have discovered the tautology. Bad news, though: dovf beat you to it. I guess now it's down to who can get to the patent office first!

yesterday
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

NoImNotNineVolt Re: Nuke those terrorists (836 comments)

Like the 13-year strategy of rocket attacks against civilian targets that Hamas has pursued in violation of international law?

This is a red-herring for two reasons.

First, your portrayal of Hamas' rocket fire is inaccurate. While it is true that various actors within Gaza have been responsible for a low but continuous level of rocket attacks into Israel for a very long time, to pin the blame on Hamas is disingenuous. This year, for example, the first Hamas rocket to be fired into Israel was launched July 7 in retaliation for the live burning of a Palestinian teenager in East Jeruslam as well as the Israeli abduction of recently-released Palestinian prisoners. It's not like Hamas just keeps firing rockets just because "Jews!", although it is clear that there are other Palestinians in Gaza who do indeed do just that. Additionally, it is unreasonable to expect Hamas to be able to effectively police Gaza if they're subject to assassination, air strikes, and periodic ground assaults by Israel.

Second, you mention civilian targets. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), Hamas does not have targeting capabilities on any of their rockets. At all. The rockets are fired indiscriminately at Israel. Hamas rockets do not target civilians, they target "North". If Israel is unhappy with this arrangement, I'm sure Hamas will be more than willing to accept delivery of rockets that do have targeting capabilities. Of course, Hamas also has the option of sitting back and doing nothing until the day that they do gain targeting capabilities. However, that's not likely to happen. In any case, it's inaccurate to claim that Hamas targets civilians with their rockets, as this is simply not possible.

I think Israel, like Hamas, has figured out that international law is largely toothless.

This point we can both agree on.

yesterday

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All-in-one Digital Credit Card

NoImNotNineVolt NoImNotNineVolt writes  |  about 9 months ago

NoImNotNineVolt (832851) writes "Coin, a Y Combinator-backed startup, has started accepting pre-orders for a device as slim as a standard piece of payment plastic that can hold eight credit, debit, and gift cards in its dynamic magnetic stripe. Paired with the Coin smartphone app via Bluetooth low energy, card details can easily be swapped in and out of the device. A minimalist user interface on the device itself allows the owner to toggle between the loaded cards and then swipe just as they would their ordinary card. All card details are encrypted (both on the device and in the smartphone app), and the device's on-board battery is expected to last for two years of typical usage. No support for chip&pin (EMV) yet, so this may have limited utility outside of the USA. They expect to start shipping in summer of 2014."
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