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Humans Need Not Apply: a Video About the Robot Revolution and Jobs

Petron Re:The problem with the all robotic workforce idea (304 comments)

If you hold food for any reason... I'll have my robots make more food.

When food is so cheap it's free, you can't withhold it. Right now air is free... can some ideological megalomaniac withhold all the air?

5 days ago

Humans Need Not Apply: a Video About the Robot Revolution and Jobs

Petron Re:The problem with the all robotic workforce idea (304 comments)

Where did Person A get food? With a 100% automated farm, likely from a robot. Does the robot want food? No.

With automation, the cost of a product drops... and if everything is automated, even making automation, then the cost drops to the point of being free. If Person A wants something and Person (er, object) B doesn't value that item at all, then that object is free. Only when Person/Object B values something is when they demand something of equal value for exchange.

What if somebody could try to horde all the food, but when nobody pays for it... what has been gained? 1 person has a million loafs of bread, and 99 doesn't have any food, or anything the bread-man wants... All the bread-man will have is moldy bread. Does he want moldy bread?

Years back there was a show (long forgot the name), but a kid was granted a wish, and he wished he had all the money in the world. He soon was sitting on a pile of cash, but when he tried to spend it, as soon as it was out of his hands, it would fly out of seller's hand, and back into his. He couldn't spend it. He quickly found out that money that can't be spent has no value. Same is true with any commodity.

Having a fully automated world, would be a step towards a "Star Trek" world, where we don't seek money, and world hunger, and world want is no longer an issue. Now that may have a some people very happy, but for me, that is the terrifying side of this. If I can get anything I want for free because there is zero human labor involved... Why would I do anything really productive? Why not sit on the couch/computer/holodeck everyday and just get fat? Why should kids go to school to learn and grow? Computers will give them everything they want. A few will want to learn, but the depth of education will drop even further. The future would be more like Wall-E's fat-chair society, than Star Trek...

People complain about greed. People talk about how greed is bad, and we need to put "people before profits". But really, Greed is good. It's very good. It is one of the primary forces that pushed our society out of a basic hunter tribes to the modern society it is today. Wanting to have more has driven us to learn, to expand, to grow in whole. It's what makes us human. Our greed makes us want to things easier and faster so we have more time, so we can earn more. We want to earn enough so we have "free time" (ironic name, because it's the time we value the most).

5 days ago

Cable Companies Duped Community Groups Into Fighting Net Neutrality

Petron Re:I really have no choice... (170 comments)

It would be nice if there was a free market. If there was, there would be no need for net neutrality.

But instead of a free market, we have a heavily regulated, crony-capitalism controlled market, where cable companies work deals with metro areas to be the only providers in town, then they use their government-approved monopoly to screw over the average person.... and to promote the re-election of those whose efforts promoted their control.

Hmm What was the FCC Chair's previous job....

If we had a free market, we would have a dozen options for broadband internet, and not one would dare try to throttle speed and ask for more just to give you what you paid for.

about 2 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

Housing prices are skewed due to an hyper-inflating housing bubble. it isn't a good measure.

Income levels has spiked up, for a good chuck of time, it was averaging around 35K/yr, it is now 51K.. income has been climbing (heck in the 40's and 50's, we made 25Kish).

As for retirement.... Raising minimum wage will drive inflation. As companies have to pay more to their employees, they will raise the prices of their goods to compensate. Know what isn't compensated? Your 401K. Any money you have sitting aside in a savings account. Of the cost of living goes up, the money you saved for retirement doesn't. The comfortable lifestyle you plan to have tomorrow is really a poor lifestyle due to inflation.

And what do you mean most people working today don't seem to expect the same standard of living as their parents??? are they mad? My parents didn't have computers and cell phones in their day... They were out, but cost thousands. A cell phone was 5K or so? We went out to eat twice a year at most. We went to see 1-2 movies a year... Home movie collection? yeah right! A VHS tape of Star Wars cost hundreds... The only place that could afford them was rental places that made their money back over time. They had one TV with antenna, and on a good day there was 4 channels. And their parents... Well my Dad tells me stories when they got electricity, and his 'rich uncle' had a new fangled 'TV'... for his parent's anniversary, he and his brothers gave them... Indoor plumbing!

And it's not just the cost of things going down, but how we earn more over time (see my note above on average income over time). Income Mobility has been ignored. Check this out: Is there Income Mobility in America?

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

I'm talking more about the hyper-inflation of the bubble than the bursting and recovering.

The change in the banking and loan laws caused under-qualified people to buy a home. That added a huge surge in demand for homes. If there is a huge surge in demand...

1990's through 2008, you can see the rapid growth in prices. The housing prices are skewed due to the bubble... not due to the bubble bursting.

Check out this site:

Check out the average wage (adjusted for inflation) for various years.
2013, the average income was 51K a year. (From )
2003: 40K
1993: 35K
1983: 33K
1973: 37K
1963: 31K
1953: 26K
1943: 22K

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

The housing prices is skewed due to the housing bubble.

Back in the 90's, we passed a lot of laws that permitted people who couldn't afford homes to get loans. As more and more people were approved of loans they couldn't afford, they bought more houses. As the supply of houses dropped, the price went up. until 2008 when the bubble burst as people who couldn't afford the homes went bust.

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

Well the majority of people making minimum wage is 16-24. About 51% of people in that demographic are in the 16-18 year old range, and around 49% are in the 19-24.

Of course, those who want to promote the higher wage will compare ages 16 and 17 to ages 18-70+... guess which one has the most people?

Minimum wage is meant to be a starting point, the minimum. It's for the person who is hiring unskilled, untested labor. Hiring the kid that might be able to show up, and might be able to mop a floor after a being instructed on how to operate a mop bucket... It's not a livable wage on it's own, nor is it meant to be one. Teens and young adults either live at home, or share an apartment/house with friends as they get on their feet. As they work the Min-wage job, the don't only get a wage, but experience... skills. Proof to an employer that they can show up on time and do tasks assigned to them. As they get more experience, they either get raises, or find better paying jobs. A few jobs down the road, they end up at a livable wage.

The average income in the US is 48-53K a year. That's about 24/hr. Almost all people working at the middle, or even the top, started at the bottom.

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Sweden (1040 comments)

Does it work both ways?

Do we judge Capitalism by it's abuse?

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

Isn't what Minimum wage is about? People telling others what fair is? So tell me, what is fair.

Cherry picking the highest value of a list and say that's fair?
Cherry picking the lowest value?
Or finding something in the middle... Compromise?

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:I can never wrap my head around this. (1040 comments)

You are taking about MINIMUM wage.

Does the average no-skill, just entering the work force 18-21 year old have that? No.

Back when I was starting out, I lived in a rented house with 4 friends. I worked minimum wage, and I couldn't buy a house, or afford rent on my own, but I had more than enough to cover 1/5th rent and food, with enough left over to have a very nice lifestyle. My friends bought cars (used), I bough a new computer. We had every game console out at the time. We hit the bars every Friday too boot. Later on I moved to a new apt with my girlfriend and we still had enough.

Minimum wage is not "Liveable" wage by the measure of a 30-something with 3 kids and a mortgage. If you are over 21 and still making minimum wage, something is wrong. Either you aren't looking for better jobs, have a handicap holding you back, or the unemployment level is too high.

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

Ok, a couple of lines were messed up.

1967: $1.40 -> $9.80
1968: $1.60 -> $10.75 --- Highest value
1969: $1.60 -> $10.20

2005: $5.15 -> $6.17
2006: $5.15 -> $5.98 --- Lowest value
2007: $5.85 -> $6.60

I guess quasi HTML comments (.-.-) comments out lines.

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Re:Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

Sorry, some data was misinformed.
1955: $0.75 >> $6.55
1956: $1.00 >> $8.60
1957: $1.00 >> $8.32
1958: $1.00 >> $8.09
1959: $1.00 >> $8.04
1960: $1.00 >> $7.90
1961: $1.15 >> $9.00
1962: $1.15 >> $8.91
1963: $1.25 >> $9.56
1964: $1.25 >> $9.43
1965: $1.25 >> $9.28
1966: $1.25 >> $9.02
1967: $1.40 >> $9.80
1968: $1.60 >> $10.75 --- Highest value
1969: $1.60 >> $10.20
1970: $1.60 >> $9.65
1971: $1.60 >> $9.24
1972: $1.60 >> $8.95
1973: $1.60 >> $8.43
1974: $2.00 >> $9.49
1975: $2.10 >> $9.13
1976: $2.30 >> $9.46
1977: $2.30 >> $8.88
1978: $2.65 >> $9.51
1979: $2.90 >> $9.34
1980: $3.10 >> $8.80
1981: $3.35 >> $8.62
1982: $3.35 >> $8.12
1983: $3.35 >> $7.87
1984: $3.35 >> $7.54
1985: $3.35 >> $7.28
1986: $3.35 >> $7.15
1987: $3.35 >> $6.90
1988: $3.35 >> $6.62
1989: $3.35 >> $6.32
1990: $3.80 >> $6.80
1991: $4.25 >> $7.30
1992: $4.25 >> $7.09
1993: $4.25 >> $6.88
1994: $4.25 >> $6.71
1995: $4.25 >> $6.52
1996: $4.75 >> $7.08
1997: $5.15 >> $7.51
1998: $5.15 >> $7.39
1999: $5.15 >> $7.23
2000: $5.15 >> $7.00
2001: $5.15 >> $6.80
2002: $5.15 >> $6.70
2003: $5.15 >> $6.55
2004: $5.15 >> $6.38
2005: $5.15 >> $6.17
2006: $5.15 >> $5.98 --- Lowest value
2007: $5.85 >> $6.60
2008: $6.55 >> $7.12
2009: $7.25 >> $7.90
2010: $7.25 >> $7.78
2011: $7.25 >> $7.54
2012: $7.25 >> $7.39
2013: $7.25 >> $7.28
2014: $7.25 >> $7.25

about 3 months ago

Seattle Approves $15 Per Hour Minimum Wage

Petron Minimum wage, a bigger picture (1040 comments)

(Wow, this got long...)
When minimum wage became the big issue, with all the protests, I thought back when I made minimum wage. I flipped burgers and live in a house with 4 friends. Sure I couldn't afford rent and food at minimum wage, but I could afford 1/5th rent and food and have plenty left over. My friends (who also worked the same McJob) saved money, a couple bough used cars. We had every game system, a great stereo, I had a top of the line computer. We had enough and some luxury items. I thought back then and how much I made. I adjusted my wage with inflation and it came to...... $6.52/hr. WHAT? wait a sec, all those protesters with signs said if I adjusted for minimum wage, it would be 10.75/hr! What gives???

So I grabbed every minimum wage since it's start and adjusted each one for minimum wage. Here it is (Note: I did this 3-4 months ago, there could be more inflation now):
Year: Wage then -> Adjusted to 'today' (3-4 months ago)
1955: $0.75 -> $6.55
1956: $1.00 -> $8.60
1957: $1.00 -> $8.32
1958: $1.00 -> $8.09
1959: $1.00 -> $8.04
1960: $1.00 -> $7.90
1961: $1.15 -> $9.00
1962: $1.15 -> $8.91
1963: $1.25 -> $9.56
1964: $1.25 -> $9.43
1965: $1.25 -> $9.28
1966: $1.25 -> $9.02
1967: $1.40 -> $9.80
1968: $1.60 -> $10.75 $10.20
1970: $1.60 -> $9.65
1971: $1.60 -> $9.24
1972: $1.60 -> $8.95
1973: $1.60 -> $8.43
1974: $2.00 -> $9.49
1975: $2.10 -> $9.13
1976: $2.30 -> $9.46
1977: $2.30 -> $8.88
1978: $2.65 -> $9.51
1979: $2.90 -> $9.34
1980: $3.10 -> $8.80
1981: $3.35 -> $8.62
1982: $3.35 -> $8.12
1983: $3.35 -> $7.87
1984: $3.35 -> $7.54
1985: $3.35 -> $7.28
1986: $3.35 -> $7.15
1987: $3.35 -> $6.90
1988: $3.35 -> $6.62
1989: $3.35 -> $6.32
1990: $3.80 -> $6.80
1991: $4.25 -> $7.30
1992: $4.25 -> $7.09
1993: $4.25 -> $6.88
1994: $4.25 -> $6.71
1995: $4.25 -> $6.52
1996: $4.75 -> $7.08
1997: $5.15 -> $7.51
1998: $5.15 -> $7.39
1999: $5.15 -> $7.23
2000: $5.15 -> $7.00
2001: $5.15 -> $6.80
2002: $5.15 -> $6.70
2003: $5.15 -> $6.55
2004: $5.15 -> $6.38
2005: $5.15 -> $6.17
2006: $5.15 -> $5.98 $6.60
2008: $6.55 -> $7.12
2009: $7.25 -> $7.90
2010: $7.25 -> $7.78
2011: $7.25 -> $7.54
2012: $7.25 -> $7.39
2013: $7.25 -> $7.28
2014: $7.25 -> $7.25

Now you see, the 10.75 is the highest value, in 1968. Claiming that should be the standard is as intellectually dishonest as claiming the lowest value ($5.98/hr) should be the standard. The median would be $7.78, and the average would be $7.94. A fair minimum wage increase would be in that rage. Last time we raised minimum wage in 2009, there was no issue... because it was with in that median-average rage. It was fair.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to careers. They are entry level jobs for teens and young adults. Majority of minimum wage workers are just starting out. As you gain experience you become worth more to an employer and you should make more. If you aren't, look for a new job. Early in my adult life, I switched jobs every 1-2 years. Each job paid better than the previous.

There will always be somebody at the bottom. The young person who just starts out doesn't have anything. Some have debts, like college loans, so they have a negative self-worth. As we gain skills and earn more, our worth goes up. People love to tout the "Wealth inequality" but the better picture is "Income Mobility". What happens to those in the bottom 20%... From 1996 to 2005, over 50% of the people in the bottom 20% moved up to a higher bracket. In just 10 years, most moved up. Now why has the bracket increased in size if everybody is moving up? The bottom is always filled with new people entering the work force. The 9 year old in 1996 is now in the work force in 2005.

Also, when people point at those evil corporations and say "They make so much, if their CEO takes a paycut, they could afford this"... The problem there is math.
Lets look at McDonald's. They employ about 760,000 people in the US. Lets assume that the vast majority of employees work 30 hours a week at minimum wage.
If we raise minimum wage from 7.25/hr to 15/hr, that is a 7.75/hr increase (over 100% raise!)
Well each employee will make 7.75/hr more. That's (7.75 * 30 * 52) 12,090/yr more.
Ok lets expand that to all employees (almost all make less than that, and the managers and higher-paid emps will want more to boot).
12,090 * 760,000 = $9,188,400,000
$9.2 Billion needed to pay the pay increases.
McDonald,s global NET profit in 2012: $5.49 Billion.
McDonald's is now in the hole 3.7 Billion. All the profits is wiped out, and the company will go under unless something drastic is done.

Money doesn't grow on trees.
Money is just work tokens. You trade your labor for goods and services. Back in the day, I remember one hour of my McJob's labor could pay for a loaf of bread, a jar of PB, and a jar of jelly. A few weeks ago I checked at the store and it's still the same, one loaf of bread, and a jar of PB and J cost about 7.25... and coming soon, it will cost $15.

And lastly, the real way to help those at the bottom is to lower the unemployment... the true unemployment, including those who have 'given up' and no longer looking. Places with low unemployment pay more for all jobs. Labor is a commodity, When demand for labor is high, and supply is low, the price (wage) goes up. Heck HuffPost had a article of a McJob in North Dakota paying 10-15/hr, but they were also giving a $300 signing bonus! I freakin' signing bonus to work at McDonald's! That is what happens when unemployment is extremely low. Companies will pay more, and more willing to train (they accept they can't find people with training, so they will pay to give you the skills they need). So not only do you get a better wage, but you get better skills.

about 3 months ago

Comcast-Time Warner Deal May Hinge On Low-Cost Internet Plan

Petron Re:Internet at library (114 comments)

If we have to bend over backwards for every single rare instance of some ultra-hard-luck case... we will never have anything nice.

Does that poor person with no car, no legs, living in an area with -74 degree winters and no way to get to a public internet location (such as a library) get to the store to get food? Could that resource also stop a community center, library, city hall, etc to use a computer?

There will always be a hard luck case.

about 3 months ago

Study Finds US Is an Oligarchy, Not a Democracy

Petron Re:Are you kidding (818 comments)

Wow... where to start.

People do vote for what they feel is best, but not FOR a person, but against. They pick the lesser of two evils. Heck last presidential election Obama himself said a vote is the best revenge. Voting for revenge? Really?

Tax cuts are tax relief. When you get a refund it is not a hand out from the government, it is YOUR money being returned because you paid too much. The government runs on your money. It takes from you for the 'common good'... and some of that common good is waste (pork).

Social programs don't help the poor. I know, I was poor. I was unemployed and the 'case workers' at the unemployment office actually told me NOT to look for work and they would 'take care of me'... The people who were there were reading the paper (not the classifieds), playing games on the computers, checking out web pages (not work related sites). I went home and found a job on my own. When I went back in to tell them I didn't need aid anymore because I found a job, they looked disappointed and in disbelief. The person I talked to said "But... but, we would have taken care of you". I told them I can take care of myself. But being around and having poor friends I can't tell you the number of times I've heard "I can't get a job, I'll lose my [insurance, ebt card, etc]." We 'declared war' on poverty back in the 60's and we only promoted it's growth. The people on the programs are so scared they might lose those programs they will vote to ensure they keep getting their crumbs. See "Obama-phone lady". Back in my poor days, (about 10 years ago) I was making around 11-12K a year (yes, that's poverty line). I'll be making at least 80K by the end of the year. I worked my way out... and I had to fight those who were trying to 'help' me. Crabs in a bucket is also true.

When a teenager gets pregnant, how is it NOT her and her boyfriend's fault (excluding rape/incest of course)? When you choose to have sex, you chose to take the risk. Years back, teen pregnancy was very rare. A handful in a state... but now it's way too common. High-schools are having daycare centers built inside. But we have pushed how socially acceptable a teen-pregnancy is... heck we even glorify it.

As for career women... fine. Women can pursue any career they want. But again, take responsibility of your actions. If you have a risk of getting pregnant, that is a risk you either can accept mitigate with birth control.

As for Pro-Life is not about the life of the baby... are you kidding? Abortion ends a human life. That can't be disputed. Is it a life? Yes. Even if it is a single cell, it has the properties of life. It grows, it feeds, it is alive. Is it human? Yes. It may not have 2 arms and 2 legs at the time, but I know people who don't have 2 arms, or 2 legs, either by an accident, or birth defect... they are still human. It boils down to DNA, and even as a single cell, it has human DNA and it is alive.

And when you drive by a sign, like when I visit my folks, from a young couple renting billboard space with the text: "Unexpected pregnancy? We will adopt your baby! Call [phone number]. Please." You see how people are begging to adopt. The waiting list to adopt a baby is in years. It's so long we are importing babies from China because that process (still years) is easier, and less expensive. My sister-in-law was adopted. All she knows about her birth-mother is: She was young, and not ready to take care of a child, and she did consider abortion. My sister-in-law is a wonderful, sweet person. We are all thankful her birth-mother allowed her parents to adopt her.

about 4 months ago

Intuit, Maker of Turbotax, Lobbies Against Simplified Tax Filings

Petron Re:Proposal (423 comments)

I propose we put Tax day right before Election day. That would make for some interesting changes.


about 4 months ago

Netflix Gets What It Pays For: Comcast Streaming Speeds Skyrocket

Petron Re:the pink elephant in the room: capitalism. (328 comments)

It's not "American Capitalism" its a Goverment-Corporation complex.

AKA: Crony-Capitalism.

Government allows Comcast to be the only choice for the vast majority of their customer. They now have a monopoly, a government approved one. If we had 10+ choices for high-speed internet, then this would not be an issue... All it would take is one to offer high-speed, unfiltered internet at a fair price and all the others would have to match to compete. Capitalism works best in a competitive market.

about 4 months ago



Buckyballs (and Cubes) to be discontinued.

Petron Petron writes  |  about 2 years ago

Petron (1771156) writes "Maxfield & Oberton give up the fight on buckyballs.

Due to baseless and relentless legal badgering by a certain four letter government agency, it's time to bid a fond farewell to the world's most popular adult desktoys, Buckyballs and Buckycubes. That's right: we're sad to say that Balls & Cubes have a one-way ticket to the Land-of-Awesome-Stuff-You-Should-Have-Bought-When-You-Had-the-Chance.


Link to Original Source


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