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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Re:Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

You were the one claiming that we had eliminated natural selection, I was using a little thing called sarcasm to emphasize the inconsistency between the claim and the existence of mortality due to reasons other than old age. If you can't parse sarcasm when it is pointed out to you in advance then you probably shouldn't be wasting your or anyone else's time by posting.

about three weeks ago
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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Re:Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

In the US we formulate animal diets based in kcal/lb (industry) or kcal/kg (academia). In Europe they are more likely to use MJ/kg.

I've never understood why the human nutrition folks have created such unnecessary confusion. I've been told the goal was to make things simpler and easier for the layperson to understand, but the success of that is dubious at best.

about three weeks ago
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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Re:Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

Natural selection means some get left behind. Humans work very hard to avoid that.

And you believe that none are? When did the death rate for those under 80 reach zero? I some how managed to miss the announcement! [/sarcasm]

Of course humans work to avoid that. That doesn't make them 100% successful at it. Plenty of people die before or without reproducing, and those people were "selected" against whether as a result of disease, war, bad luck, lack of desire to have children, or their own stupidity. We are not as heavily culled by "natural" events as we might be, or once were, but that only means that we've increased our genetic diversity.

Some of those genes have demonstrable down sides, but it is common in evolutionary studies to see a widening of the gene pool when selection pressure is reduced. This is a natural part of evolution as the species begins to differentiate to take advantage of different ecological niches. Furthermore, there are most definitely internal selective pressures at play as well.

Western countries have become nuclei of successful people, with hot bed (like silicon valley) acting as concentrators of certain phenotypes (the stereotypical borderline and high functioning autistics that are the engine of computing progress). That those traits may have been an evolutionary disadvantage in pre-computing days does not change their current value today, or their current effect on those individuals chances of reproducing.

Diabetes, cancers, gastric disorders (Celiac, e.g.), endometriosis, fibromyalgia, and any number of other increasingly common disorders would contradict that

1. Diabetes is no longer fatal, and many who have the more mild form could control it without insulin if they just ate a healthier diet.
2. Cancer has always existed for those who live long enough
3. gastric disorders, if not fatal or don't reduce ones chances of reproduction, are not inherently relevant to survival even without modern medicine
4. endometriosis, has also always existed. it can be seen in non-domesticated species
5. fibromyalgia is vague pain. Again, pain by itself is not fatal and does not reduce ones odds of reproducing even in the absence of modern medicine. Especially if it frequently does not occur until one is past their prime reproductive years.
6. poor eyesight has not been a selection pressure in centuries, even before the development of optics or the widespread availability of corrective lenses. Again, especially in those cases where it does not appear until after the person has passed their prime reproductive years. Most people who wear glasses at younger ages do so to correct relatively minor defects in their vision.
7. IVF has risen in prevalence in part due to changes in human culture. Many women who might have been able to conceive naturally in their teens and 20's need IVF in their 30's and 40's because of non-genetic problems, and therefore are irrelevant to the discussion of selective pressures.

Whether that's a gene that results in sickle cell or juvenile diabetes or whatever, that's what I mean by a "bad gene".

Being heterozygous for sickle cell is a BENEFIT if you live in a malaria rich region of the world, so to categorically state that it is "Bad" is myopic. This is exactly the point I've been trying to drive home. The value of a phenotype is situation dependent, and just because it confers no benefit in one situation does not mean it could not under different circumstances. The sickle cell trait spread as widely as it did in African populations in spite of the problems being homozygous for the trait can cause because the heterozygotes were better adapted to frequent exposure to malaria.

Tell a child with leukemia or diabetes that his "trait" is actually beneficial in some way. Tell someone who is badly nearsighted and can't see anything without glasses that his trait is beneficial in some way. Tell the child who is born with a cleft palate that you aren't going to do cosmetic surgery because his trait is actually beneficial.

In the current environment, no none of these are beneficial. However, that does not mean they could not be under the right conditions or when paired with other genes in a different individual. Also, cleft palate is not always genetic in origin. Far more of those who develop a cleft palate have no genetic predisposition and they could have developed the phenotype due to environmental reasons (maternal nutrition, physical trauma, exposure to a chemical that interferes with midfacial development. Furthermore, evolution is not about the individual, but the species. Using the Sickle Cell example again, homozygotes with the sickle cell allele generally die, but their heterozygote siblings survive much better than those who are homozygous for the non-sickle cell allele.

Let the Down Syndrome kids use their beneficial trait to make good lives on their own.

You have obviously never heard of the neurodiversity movement. I've worked with special needs kids and there are some with down syndrome that are quite capable of surviving on their own. More capable than many non-down-syndrome individuals I know.

when you remove natural selection from the process of evolution, evolution no longer works

It is exceedingly arrogant to believe that humans are somehow exempt to selective pressures. As long as reproduction rates are not evenly distributed across the entire human population (ie 2 children per couple, and all children live to have 2 children themselves infinitely), then there will be evolution as some genes become more or less prominent in the overall population. To believe otherwise is to seriously misunderstand the underlying mechanisms of evolution.

No, I really don't care, because that's so far in the past that it was before existing civilizations and thus before current efforts to defeat natural selection that it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

No it is not irrelevant. It is an example of the loss of an ability that on it's face would be a negative (like the ability to digest lactose or gluten), yet turned out to be irrelevant to the survival of the species. You seem to operate under the false assumption that any loss in evolutionary "fitness" for past selective pressures is an unequivocal negative for our evolution as a species. However, the fossil record of all species is littered with examples of lost traits that were essential during one era, but unimportant to survival later on.

about three weeks ago
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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Re:Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

Very true. Registered Dietician (RD) is a protected title like MD, or PhD. No such protection exists for "Nutritionist" and as a result anyone can describe themselves as such. In animal nutrition someone calling themselves a nutritionist generally has a PhD in the field of nutrition from an accredited university (as I have), but that is because a nutritionist is hired by the feed industry and a PhD is required to do the job.

For human nutrition, because it is so open to anyone who can write a good book and can look surprisingly healthful for their book jacket photo, the requirements are much lower. Instead of formulating nutrition plans (left to the RD's) human nutritionists are generally the charismatic front (wo)men who the brand is built around, and who's job it is to spout BS on the talk show circuit and in infomercials.

about three weeks ago
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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Re:Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

By active gene manipulation through selective breeding.

True, and that is why we've made so much progress in such a short period of time with pigs. However, to assume that natural selection cannot accomplish in 4000 years, what we've done through selective breeding in ~40 years is odd to me. In humans there isn't some intelligence applying the selection, but that does not mean that selection is not taking place. The difference is that the environment, consisting in part of the food that can be cultivated in that environment, is applying the selection pressure. Most humans can utilize lactose well into adulthood because we evolved the ability to do so because the offspring of humans who could were more likely to survive and breed. The ability to digest lactose as an adult is not as advantageous as it once was, and in the absence of that selective pressure the trait is becoming less universal. Both the historical spread of lactose tolerance and the current rise of lactose intolerance are examples of evolution in action.

What we HAVE been able to do by avoiding eugenics with humans while applying modern medicine is to make less robust humans

No, humans are not less robust, at least in an evolutionary sense, because evolution is all about survival in the environment as it is at the moment. It is not about some theoretical ideal or past conditions that no longer apply. It is inconvenient that one my sons is lactose intolerant, sure, but he lives in a time and place where the ability to digest lactose does not affect his long term prospects of reproduction appreciably. Similarly, it would have been nice for early sailors to be able to synthesize vitamin C on their own, but they couldn't and that led to a lot of brave men suffering and sometimes dying of scurvy before they realized that eating citrus fruits or extracts can prevent it (even before medicine realized what it was about citrus that prevented scurvy). Humans have always used our intelligence to think our way out of apparent maladaptions to our environment. The net effect has been to show that our greater intelligence is a more valuable adaptation that big teeth, claws, and a vitamin C synthetic pathway in the liver.

...has kept people with bad genes alive...[emphasis mine]

There are no "bad" genes. There are traits which are not well adapted to a particular environment or situation, but that does not make them bad per se. Sickle cell being the poster child for an apparent disorder this actually advantageous under certain conditions. Same goes for white skin, and advantage that evolved and spread in colder northern europe, but is a hindrance to whites living in regions with plenty of UV exposure throughout the year because it increases your risk of developing cancer. All traits are trade offs and to assume any trait is inherently "Bad" is to fall into the same faulty reasoning that led to eugenics in the first place.

What you are seeing is the survival of detrimental mutations or maladaptations, not natural selection against them.

Evolution is not directional. There is not De-Evolution as a counter to Evolution. There may be a future environmental condition where the current maladaptation are favorable. Evolution is the accumulation of genetic changes over time, its not the accumulation of abilities like in an RPG. Shortly after humans evolved tricolor vision we started loosing the ability to detect most pheromones. It is believed that this loss of a previously essential ability occurred because the evolutionary role for which pheromones had evolved (to signal sexual receptiveness among other things) could also be met by increased color sensitivity (consider the baboons with the red asses everyone likes to laugh at, or the ones with the blue, red and white skin on their faces), thus making the loss of one specific ability unimportant in the large flow of genetic changes.

My original subject line still holds be careful with those assumptions

about three weeks ago
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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Re:Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

Researchers have been studying human evolution by tracking changes in our DNA and using advanced modeling techniques to gauge the rate of our evolution, including projecting various changes backward in time. That's how we know that Neanderthals and modern humans bred with each other. We've found the Neanderthal genes in the modern human population. Most genes contribute to more than one trait, so even small changes in our DNA can lead to large changes in our phenotype. To assume that somehow those changes have magically skipped over affecting any of the numerous genes involved in ingestion, digestion, and metabolizing our food is asinine.

Our ability to support the energy sink that is the human brains is dependent upon our ability to get enough nutrients, and more importantly energy, to support its development and high maintenance requirements as an adult. That it self is evidence of our diet and bodies evolving together. Also, the reduction in the size of our jaws, leading to chronic problems with impacted 3rd molars, is another instance where we have evolved as a result of our diet. The larger jaws of earlier hominids are not necessary because we cook our food. That cooking makes the nutrients more available, meaning we need to eat less. It also makes the food softer, meaning we don't need massive jaws to constantly grind seeds and roots and raw meat.

There is plenty of other evidence that our bodies have evolved in large part BECAUSE of changes in what we eat and how we prepare it. The problem is that fad dieters have never been very big on reading peer-reviewed literature. They prefer to read the book-of-the-month endorsed by some celebrity or health guru.

about three weeks ago
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The Evolution of Diet

crmarvin42 Be careful with those assumptions. (281 comments)

The idea that we have not had time to evolve to farmed food is just stupid. We've managed to completely revamp the modern pig phenotype from a slow growing lard producing machine, with back fat measuring as much as 9-12 inches to a pig where the standard backfat thickness is measured in millimeters in less than half a century. Humans have been farming for roughly 100 times longer than that.

We've seen human populations with distinct difference in their ability to handle different components of foodstuffs (lactose, gluten, fat, etc). Explain to me how that ISN'T evidence of evolution! The whole "paleo" fad is based on two false assumptions. 1) that we are no longer evolving, and 2) that evolution is directed at some idealized collection phenotypes.

about three weeks ago
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How To Read a Microbiome Study Like a Scientist

crmarvin42 Re: Ask about everything (53 comments)

I don't care what you want to put in your body. I expect the same respect from you.

Wow, you have a very carrying soul [/sarcasm]

Unlike you, the FDA has a statutory obligation to make sure that foods and drugs sold in the US are safe for their intended use. The "intended use" part allows for a surprising amount of wiggle room. How is the FDA to know if you bought vitamins to treat some disease (a drug use) or to make sure you meet the normal RDA (not a drug use)? They can't and don't try. The intended use limit is not on the end user, but the seller. VitaminsRUs cannot advertise that their vitamin pills prevent cancer, but if you believe they will there is nothing the FDA can do to stop you, and they won't even try.

You do not have the moral authority to tell another person what they may or may not ingest.

The FDA is not a moral authority, but a scientific one. They are staffed with experts in various fields necessary to decide which products are safe and effective, and which are not. You appear to feel yourself up to the task of sorting the wheat from the chaff, but most Americans are not. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you consider yourself to be of above average intelligence and education (ironically, the vast majority of people do as well). But think about most of the people you see in a day (neighbors, friends, family, strangers). How many of them would you suspect are similarly equipped to handle sophisticated marketing made to give the appearance of scientific validity despite a demonstrable lack there of? That is why the agency was created (see patent medicines, most of which were simply different forms of cocaine). To protect the largely ignorant populace from unsafe and unproven products.

As I stated before: regulation to ensure the product contains only the labeled, unadulterated ingredients is the limit. I can also conceptually support banning "false claims" but that is a very squishy concept in biomedical terms and is typically advocated as an subterfuge to ban things.

All such regulations require oversight. Verification that companies are obeying the laws that are supposed to govern their actions. The dietary supplement market is exempt from much of this oversight because they lied to the US population and convinced them that the FDA was out to take away their vitamins and make they by prescription only. That would never have happened. I know this because I do regulatory work with the division of the FDA involved in regulating the animal equivalent to dietary supplements, namely Feed Additives. No prescription is needed for an approved feed additive, no consultation with a veterinarian is required, but feed additive manufacturers are required to prove that a new additive is safe and effective. Once approved, anyone can sell that feed additive for the approved use without further involvement of the FDA. A feed additive petition takes about 2 years (on average, with a HUGE SD due to a non-normal distribution) from submission to approval, but once the approval is made no more work is required. In most other countries the requirements are similar, except that approvals are vendor specific (Company A and B both have to register their Vitamin C), and have to be renewed periodically (US system only requires approval once).

about a month ago
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How To Read a Microbiome Study Like a Scientist

crmarvin42 Re:Ask about everything (53 comments)

Probably because herbal tea is food and therefore falls under the more comprehensive oversight and rules that cover all foods. She is correct that dietary supplements can contain pretty much anything.

about a month ago
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How To Read a Microbiome Study Like a Scientist

crmarvin42 Re: Ask about everything (53 comments)

FDA regulations are use based. If you are taking vitamin C as a way to meet your daily requirement for vitamin c, then there is no health claim and your purchasing experience wouldn't change. However, the vitamin c seller would need to convince the FDA as to their supplements efficacy of disease prevention, which is BS anyway. The FDA oversight wouldn't do much to vitamin availability (the strawman the afore mentioned misinformation campaign used to drum up support for thei dietary supplement exclusions), but it would keep the "Magic" (read bullshit) pills Dr Oz keeps pushing off of the market in the first place. It would also cause other known BS like herbal supplements that lack any of the advertised herb, or the homeopathic sugar pills to be pulled due to a demonstrable lack of efficacy.

about a month ago
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How To Read a Microbiome Study Like a Scientist

crmarvin42 Re:Ask about everything (53 comments)

The really frustrating part is when people who will rant against drug companies and a supposed lack of testing (which could not be further from the truth) will in the same breath rave about the latest dietary supplement (for which no testing is actually required, and over which the FDA has little legal oversight).

The food supplements industry is largely unregulated in the US due to an impressive mis-information campaign back in the 1980's which resulted in a special section of the regulations for dietary supplements. Animal feed is more tightly regulated than feed supplements. Feed additives have to prove, to the satisfaction of the FDA, that they are effective for a specific purpose. No similar requirement exists for dietary supplements.

about a month ago
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FarmBot: an Open Source Automated Farming Machine

crmarvin42 ErnieKey obviously has no knowledge of US farming (133 comments)

If ernieKey knew anything about modern agriculture he wouldn't have claimed such a lack of technological progress in agriculture. Crop production uses GPS controlled tractors and combines, animal production uses computer controlled monitoring and automation of environmental controls, electronic feeding systems that allow for group housing AND individualized nutrition plans, feed mills use real time NIR to evaluate feedstuffs so as to enable more accurate feed formulation, slaughter houses are wonders of automation where a carcass can be processed with a minimum of human interaction... I could go on indefinitely. As neat as his techno be, the tech already in widespread use in the industry is similarly impressive (and shipping TODAY).

about a month ago
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EU May Allow Members Home Rule On GMO Foods

crmarvin42 Re:The science behind GMOs show they are safe. (272 comments)

Likewise, "companies must submit studies, and the FDA must approve them, before a genetic change may be added to a food" sounds equally reasonable and yet is labeled "zealotry" by folks like the parent poster.

As a matter of fact, the FDA is already one of 3 federal agencies in the US responsible for oversight of GMO:

What gets everyone all hot and bothered (myself included) is the erroneous perception that GMO are not regulated at all, or that they've been confirmed as unsafe for people or the environment despite all of the evidence being in opposition to that position. It is decidedly anti-science zealotry that prevents many from accepting that the scientists involved in developing and certifying GMO's have done their jobs, and done them well.

about 3 months ago
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EU May Allow Members Home Rule On GMO Foods

crmarvin42 Re:I actually read the article... (272 comments)

There is a specific allergen (short protein sequence) in peanuts that is responsible for the peanut allergy. It is well known which DNA sequence results in the offending protein sequence. Therefore, the DNA inserted into the new GM crop is compared via computer against all known allergens (not just the peanut allergen) based on the DNA and protein sequences. They also look for sequences that are similar to known allergens so that more involved testing can be done (cell culture work, anima models, etc.) to rule out the accidental development of a "New" antigen. So far we have had 20 years of 100 percent success in preventing GM crops from introducing new or already known allergens into the food supply. Can't guarantee we won't slip up eventually, but you have to give credit where credit is due.

about 3 months ago
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EU May Allow Members Home Rule On GMO Foods

crmarvin42 Re:Wrong (272 comments)

Sure it was stopped before commercialization. But this is hardly something you get when splicing.

You are flat out wrong. This is a case of why GM is so safe, and an example of the system working as designed.

Take a look at Solanine in potatoes. As a member of the nightshade family, there is always the potential that a new variety of potato will contain dangerous levels of solanine or other glycoamyloids just due to random interaction between the parent genomes. Bombarding potatoes with mutagens like ionizing radiation, or carcinogenic chemicals are OK by organic standards, and how new varieties of potatoes were developed before we even understood that DNA was the source of inheritance. This kind of genetic modification is MORE likely to result in accidental changes in Solanine concentration because so many genes are changed simultaniously. Several varieties of potatoes that were not GM have been removed from the market only AFTER they made people sick.

The targeted nature of modern techniques mean we can characterize the new strain to a previously impossible level BEFORE they hit the market. Who cares how many mistakes they make in the lab, as long as they STAY in the lab. The 78 UK made sick by Solanine poisoning in Britain in the 1970's are 78 more adverse events than have ever been reported for ALL GM products combined over the last 20 years precisely BECAUSE we scrutinize all new GM strains so closely before they are allowed on the market.

about 3 months ago
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EU May Allow Members Home Rule On GMO Foods

crmarvin42 Re:Let's get rid of EU (272 comments)

I was in Germany a few weeks ago for work, and my German colleges all seemed to be of the opinion that the EU was never meant to grow past the initial members, at least in the near term. There is a lot of shared culture and history amongst the original EU member states, and it was viewed as the first step toward the type of federalization you mention. However, with the expansion of the EU to include member nations that can only be considered "Europe" if you've had a few fingers of scotch, are standing on your head, and squinting, the pace of such integration gets slower and slower. It's also part of why Greece is in such dire straights.

Used to me that in such a situation Greece could allow their currency to devalue, relative to the rest of Europe, and they'd pull themselves out in a few years as the value of their existing debt is reduced. However, now that their currency is also pegged to the German et al. economies they cannot do that and what would of taken a few years will now take decades.

about 3 months ago
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Mutant Registration vs. Vaccine Registration

crmarvin42 Re:Misinformation? (493 comments)

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'll pit my annecdotal experience against your annecdotal experience.

My sister (1 at the time) got a mild case, but then came down with Shingles while in college. She was in agony for almost a year and considered taking a semester off because she was in so much chronic pain.

My brother got it when he was 3 and had it everywhere. On his genitals, in his mouth, down his throat. He was already a sickly child who did not gain any weight for the 1st 6 months of his life. The sores in his throat exacerbated his respiratory problems and he had to be hospitalzied.

Public health is a numbers game. The cost of the invervention weighed against the cumulative costs on society. A disease does not have to be consistently life threatening to be worth erradicating through vaccination. The cost of treating events like my sisters shingles and my brothers hospitalization have a large effect on the total cost of a disease organism. Much higher than would be expected based on the prevalence of such complications. Take the human suffering component into account and a solid case for vaccination becomes even stronger.

about 4 months ago
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Mutant Registration vs. Vaccine Registration

crmarvin42 Re:Well... (493 comments)

What about people with other health conditions who cannot tolerate the vaccine?

They would benefit in the event of an oubreak in there area. They could be notified directly that there was an outbreak in the area so that they could then decide to leave the hot zone before becoming infected. I don't think anyone is claiming vaccines should be administered to those at high risk for adverse events (egg allgies, or previous adverse reactions to similar vaccines). However, unvaccinated people do pose a risk not only to themselves, but to others. Being able to mitigate those risks would help everyone.

To be clear, I approve of something like this for the US (where I live) but only if the list is maintained by health officals only. I see no reason for this to be publicly available information. I have no business knowing if you are vaccinated, but the WHO or CDC does in the event of a legitimate risk in your area.

Beyond a certain critical mass of vaccinations, additional vaccinations are subject to diminishing returns.

Very true, but that critical mass is around 95%. The original article makes it clear that in Canada, the vaccination rates are nowhere near that number. Articles I've read in the US place the rates below that number as well. Especially in regions where non-medical vaccination abstentions are high (religious groups, Wealthy communities suffering from the misconception that vaccines are related to autism, etc.).

about 4 months ago
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Robots: a Working Breed At the Dairy

crmarvin42 Re:Comon.. Really? Robots to move cows around? (65 comments)

Your inability to see a reason does not mean one does not exist. Although, I don't disagree regarding the daily contact. However, on the farms I've visited that use robots, their direct human contact is not appreciably lower, it is only the type of interaction that has changed.These cows milk themselves so they are not rushed in the parlor by a hired hand trying to get done with their shift or this particular chore faster, which is interaction the cows are probably better off without. Instead the herdsman has time to walk the pens while he and the cows are more relaxed.

These robots also come with all sorts of sensors and automatic flagging software to notify the producer of potential problems. The sensors in these machines can predict mastitis based changes in the composition of the milk before the cow exhibits any signs that the farmer could detect, they can track milk components on a daily basis per cow, and enable targeted feeding of extra nutrition during milking to supplement the TMR for the highest producing cows. For a modern, data driven dairy, these machines are a treasure trove of information about the cows to supplement the knowledge that comes from working with the cows on a daily basis

Also, keep in mind that robotic milkers don't really scale beyond 500 cow herds. These are a labor saving device for those farms that can least afford to hire another person. Each robot can handle about 60 cows depending on how productive they are. Above 500 cows (8 robots) and it becomes more cost effective to use a traditional parlor with full time employees to do the milking.

This robot, which does look more like a graduate student project than a commercial product, appears to work in an open field. That is a very different application from the moving gates you are referring to. Robots are generally built for a specific purpose, and those automated gates you describe wouldn't do much good for cows spread over several acres, whereas this one might in the future.

about 10 months ago
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Robots: a Working Breed At the Dairy

crmarvin42 Re:Comon.. Really? Robots to move cows around? (65 comments)

Very true, but I see this device as more of a proof-of-concept for robots to work beside livestock in general. Pastured dairy cows are usually pretty dosile due to frequent handling, but what about range fed beef cattle? What about a robot to empty a broiler house or load turkey's without spooking them and losing birds due to acities or damaged breast meat? I'm not saying all of this will come to pass, but the possibilities are intriging.

Also, this could potentially be used in conjuction with a robotic milking parlour to automate fetching cows on rotationally grazed pastures to automate the entire process.

about 10 months ago

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