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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

No it isn't. It's required by law to pay taxes just as it is required to pay your employees and not kill them at the end of the day.

So you're saying it's not strictly a negative externality. The moral content or intent of a policy is completely irrelevant to whether it creates an externality or not.

Just because it would be cheaper if this law didn't exist doesn't make it an externality.

Of course not. It's incurred without choice by the employer, that's what makes it an externality.

I don't think you will ever understand what an externality is. There isn't much more I can do here. I understand that you will never want to lower CO2 emissions if you don't get what an externality is.

Funny, doesn't look like that from my end. While I grant someone seems to have a problem understanding what an externality is, I find it more interesting that merely characterizing this massive synergy of fossil fuels, energy, and transportation with the entirety of an economy, as not an externality is sufficient to dismiss it.

This strikes me as comparable to the argument from authority fallacy you presented earlier, created by presenting "credible, peer-reviewed", but highly biased predictions as if they were the best possible guesses out there.

Sure, if we ignore contrary evidence, like what I've remarked on (such as ignoring the positive externalities of fossil fuel use, proper time value of money, or the oter systematic biases contributing to portraying radical carbon dioxide emission reduction as something with low costs and large benefits) then sure, we can reach agreement on this. It's just not worth my effort to do so. Nor would it be moral.

13 hours ago
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

Externalities are not related to price.

As an aside, the more (or less) something costs, the less (or more) incentive there is to produce it. Higher supply results in a price swing in the opposite direction due to supply and demand. That right there creates a positive correlation between externalities incurred by something and the price offered for that thing.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

The cost of all goods include the cost of transportation. When you pay for an apple, you pay for pesticide, oil, transport, the retailer's accountant and a whole bunch of stuff whether you like it or not and these are not externalities, these are part of the voluntary trade, no matter if you are aware of the details or not.

No, it doesn't work that way. You already included a number of externalities. The retailer's accountant, for example, often is employed to insure compliance with tax codes and employment regulation. The marginal cost of the labor required to deal with that is an externality.

For oil, similarly, the various goods and services that the apple grower uses which are not directly tied to the purchase of your apple, also make the apple a little bit cheaper. That's an externality of oil which directly changes the price of the apple. Similar, because the apple is cheaper or more expensive, you may be able to offer your goods and services (eg, your labor) at a cheaper price or forced to offer at a more expensive price . And you can purchase more or less of other goods and services that you consume.

Externalities are not related to price. Cheap oil has the same externalities as expensive oil. Externalities are related to its production and burning in your car. Not to the price you pay at the pump.

This is deeply flawed reasoning. The price of oil due to its prevalent use throughout human society creates substantial externalities just on that basis alone.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

It's not nebulous. Just because you are ignorant doesn't make it an externality. So whether you agree or not to the pollution of your own car, it is par of the deal, or the trade (between you and the gas company) if you prefer. What is not part of the deal is the pollution that you force to others while driving your car.

I prefer "trade" not "deal" because "trade" has an established meaning ("mutually voluntary exchange of goods or services") while "deal" apparently means "Whatever danbob999 decides it means". I note that you have yet to objectively define "deal" or explain its relevance to anything we've been discussing.

Yes. And when you buy gas, or buy service from a delivery company, you make the choice to add more CO2 to the atmosphere. A small part of that cost will be assumed by you. But a much larger amount will be assumed by the rest of the world, and this is what we call an externality.

It's an externality because the rest of the world didn't participate in my transaction. Similarly, cheaper or more expensive oil can result in near universally cheaper or more expensive goods and services even when the agent doesn't do anything with oil or its derivative products directly. That's an externality as well by definition since the beneficiaries didn't participate in the trading or use of fuel and thus did not voluntarily incur the cost or benefit of the pricing of oil-derived fuels.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

It's the impact on those not part of the deal which is an externality.

No, that's not what externality means. Externality means you didn't make a choice to incur the cost or benefit. Making a trade doesn't imply that I'm part of some larger, nebulous "deal" and hence have agreed to whatever externalities I'm exposed to.

yesterday
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Facebook Censoring Images of the Prophet Muhammad In Turkey

khallow ok so what (215 comments)

So Zuckerberg is a bit of a hypocrite. This isn't exactly a new or rare thing. At least a hypocrite concedes that there is a moral system they should be following and can be pressured into following that moral code. The people who aren't hypocrites tend to be because such because there's no longer reason to bother hiding their vicious natures.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

You don't choose the price in a competitive market.

An irrelevant detail, but it's worth noting that you do choose whether to engage in a trade or not.

That's not part of the deal. Amish farmers not using oil will suffer equally from AGW.

So externalities count only if they're incurred by people who are perceived by a single internet poster as not being participants in a market? The benefits or costs of an externality are not magically different from any other benefits or costs when it comes to trade. It's all part of the deal whether you can choose it or not.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

When you buy service from a delivery company, the oil is part of the deal, even if the delivery company act as a middle man and do not extract, refine and transport the oil itself.

So are any negative externalities from fossil fuel use that drive up the price of the service. For example, if I buy an agricultural product which is made cheaper due to the use of cheap oil, then sure, that's part of the deal, a part which I didn't choose.

But if the farms which produce that agricultural product also are suffering from a drought directly caused by AGW and which drives up the cost of the product in question? Well, that's part of the deal too. And again, a part which I didn't choose.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

Unless it doesn't.

You're throwing away the synergy argument as a result. Namely, that cheap, abundant oil makes everything else cheaper and everyone wealthier. That's the argument for using and even subsidizing oil in a nutshell. Lose that and you're stuck haggling over the amount of the carbon tax or size of the cap-and-trade markets.

Never mention != pretend it doesn't exist

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Actually it is evidence especially since the positive externalities of transportation and energy have been a big argument both for using oil and for making that oil cheap for decades. It's too prevalent and important to just not mention. For example, the price of oil is the second most important factor for inflation in the developed world after supply of money.

I see the other poster you've been arguing with has not pretend the externalties don't exist, but merely say "the negative ones far outweight the positives."

Which is a good sign since that means someone can modify their rhetorical arguments to take into account an opponent's position. It doesn't mean I'll agree with them though especially since they are now ignoring the positive externalities explicitly (as being "far outweighed" without justification) rather than implicitly.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

"In economics, an externality is the cost or benefit that affects a party who did not choose to incur that cost or benefit."

Look at what I claimed externality meant:

An externality is a cost or benefit to any party which is not part of a trade.

Since the other parties are not part of the trade, then they did not choose to incur the costs or benefits of the trade and hence, my definition matches the Wikipedia definition of externality for trading.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

Nor does adding a middleman not make it an externality. If I make a deal with the US government so that every transaction in the US now has to pay me a 1% sales tax in order to occur, then I've become a middle man in a zillion trades, but as a negative externality of the one trade with the US government.

yesterday
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

And you are part of the trade when you get a service from company A which in turns gets another service from company B.

How? I benefit from the results of the trade, just as an asthmatic might suffer, but neither I or the asthmatic had a say in whether the trade happened or not. That makes me just another third party like everyone else who is not involved in the trade.

2 days ago
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Ed Felten: California Must Lead On Cybersecurity

khallow Re:please stay there. You'll like Morris (80 comments)

Googling around, I see that you appear to be devout Christian. Since economic and moral arguments don't seem to work, how about let's try two questions:

1) Has God given all of us free will?

2) Is it God's design that we should take away some degree of free will from others in order to help them become better people?

2 days ago
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Plan C: The Cold War Plan Which Would Have Brought the US Under Martial Law

khallow Re:12949 (299 comments)

Agreed. That's the nasty thing about proscription lists, you tend to find out who's on them the hard way. I think it'd be educational to see how such a process would have worked in the 1950s.

2 days ago
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Plan C: The Cold War Plan Which Would Have Brought the US Under Martial Law

khallow Re:Then there was War Plan Red (299 comments)

I'm sure I've heard dumber things. But this is well past the point where I excise it from memory. So dumbest thing I haven't yet successfully wiped from my mind.

2 days ago
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

You don't get what an externality is.

An externality is a cost or benefit to any party which is not part of a trade. That's it.

2 days ago
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Ed Felten: California Must Lead On Cybersecurity

khallow Re:Soemtime we'll have a thread about that (80 comments)

Ok, if we're going to argue some sort of prohibition on the basis of economics, what is your economics argument for it? I'll point out that the discrepancy between California and Texas is far, far greater than merely whether they allow people to smoke marijuana (something which California actually theoretically doesn't allow either BTW with a "medical marijuana" exception). For example, there's this notable law:

AB 32 requires California to reduce its GHG emissions to 1990 levels by 2020 â" a reduction of approximately 15 percent below emissions expected under a âoebusiness as usualâ scenario.

Pursuant to AB 32, ARB must adopt regulations to achieve the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective GHG emission reductions. The full implementation of AB 32 will help mitigate risks associated with climate change, while improving energy efficiency, expanding the use of renewable energy resources, cleaner transportation, and reducing waste.

It's not hippies smoking weed which makes California gasoline a third more expensive than Texas gasoline. Similarly, there are plenty of gotchas and liabilities for employers in California that just don't happen to employers in Texas.

l approve that Texas doesn't do the brutal economy-killing approach of California. I just don't think that marijuana consumption has anything to do with California's economic problems or growing inability to compete with Texas.

There's no "think" about it, the fact is that the economy in Colorado, California, and other liberal states has been getting worse and worse compared to Texas

Colorado's economy did a touch better than Texas's economy did in 2013 (though both states did much better than California did). That just doesn't seem to fit your narrative

2 days ago
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

These are not externalities. That's the benefit to the user/customer.

Externality is a benefit or cost to someone other than the user/customer. For example, a package delivery business can deliver packages cheaper with cheap oil. All of the customers of that business are third parties which can benefit from the cheaper costs of delivering packages. The customers of the customers in turn get cheaper services. In other words, cheap oil results in cheaper costs of doing anything in society even for parties which aren't directly directly consuming oil products for transportation.

That is the positive externality to oil.

That's your opinion. Thankfully no one will consider it. If you think your opinion/method is valuable, have the guts to publish it and get it peer reviewed.

A typical dishonest challenge. So it takes "guts" to publish something on your own dime contrary to the climate change group think? Sure. But what does it take to publish what your sugar daddy paying all your expenses wants you to publish? It's inevitable and easy like water flowing downhill.

2 days ago
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

The ones who pretend oil has no positive externalities are ones with political agendas. Namely, an agenda favoring oil. They'll pretend to be libertarians or fiscal conservatives, saying "nobody" should get subsidies. But they don't want the oil subsidies to be cut. So they pretend oil has no positive externalities thus aren't getting subsidies and thus there's nothing to cut from oil - only cut everybody else's subsidies!

That wouldn't make sense, since by granting such an argument, they would destroy the strongest argument for relatively unconstrained use of oil, namely, it's incredible usefulness for transportation. I could see the foolish or naive thinking that if they allow some point of debate, then their opponents will reciprocate by allowing some other point of debate of similar magnitude in the reverse direction, but that doesn't work in practice. An experienced debater wouldn't make such a mistake.

Further, my experience has been that everyone who insists that oil has huge negative externalities never mention the possibility that oil has positive externalities. And they don't favor oil.

2 days ago
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Science By Democracy Doesn't Work

khallow Re:Science by democracy doesn't work? (491 comments)

They might exist but the negative ones far outweight the positives.

Show it then. Where is this evidence? I'll show as evidence of considerable positive externalities, the synergistic effects of cheaper energy and transportation on everything we do and make.

We were talking about credible, peer-reviewed reports.

And I was talking about a way to make those reports more accurate in fact than merely in appearance.

2 days ago

Submissions

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Cheap airship sets new record for altitude

khallow khallow writes  |  more than 3 years ago

khallow writes "Last weekend, we saw balloons beat records for the highest amateur balloon and longest latex balloon flight by distance and duration, but another record was broken as well. JP Aerospace, a team operating out of Sacramento, California (but supported by members all over the world) launched an operating airship to 95,085 feet (almost 29 kilometers high). Space.com had this to say:



Crewed stations floating high above the Earth with huge balloons could someday act as waypoints for human astronauts headed into space. That's the vision of a DIY space program that has smashed world altitude records by sending a drone airship flying up 18 miles into the sky. The Tandem airship soared almost four miles higher than any past airships during its record-breaking flight on the morning of Oct. 22. Its flight to 95,085 feet above Nevada's Black Rock desert marks a first step toward plans for an "Airship to Orbit" program that would fly humans into space using existing technology.

"The big aerospace firms have been trying to do this for decades, spending hundreds of millions of dollars," said John Powell, president of JP Aerospace. "We've spent about $30,000 and the past five years developing Tandem."

"

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