Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Comments

top

FTDI Removes Driver From Windows Update That Bricked Cloned Chips

tibit Re:Computer Missues Act 1990 (482 comments)

It was their chip in as much as the chip tried very hard to be detected by their driver. IMHO at that point all the bets are off. I've been thinking about it a lot and FTDI did the right thing. The people who say "ooh we won't use FTDI chips anymore" aren't really their customers. They have no real grasp of who is who in the supply chain, and they themselves will gladly purchase counterfeit chips without even realizing it. FTDI can piss those off without any loss of revenue. I've been using FTDI for a long time - since their first A revision hardware came out. I see no reason to stop using their products. If any of our product stops working, I have the mainstream vendor invoices to back up all of my purchases, and I'll gladly ship the nonworking chips back to the vendor, and demand damages/downtime compensation from them as well.

10 hours ago
top

FTDI Removes Driver From Windows Update That Bricked Cloned Chips

tibit Re:Computer Missues Act 1990 (482 comments)

FTDI owns the entire PID range. You're thinking of the VID. They didn't change the VID.

10 hours ago
top

FTDI Removes Driver From Windows Update That Bricked Cloned Chips

tibit Re:Computer Missues Act 1990 (482 comments)

So far, we know that the FTDI clones are just generic mask-ROM microcontrollers. Probably the Prolific ones are similar. No counterfeiter would go as far as duplicating the functionality at the level of silicon, unless they wanted to go against the copyright and simply copy the masks. They must be somewhat flaky because it's just a microcontroller with its GPIO packaged to look "like" an FTDI chip. The electrical specs don't quite match, the behavior doesn't quite match, it can't but be flaky.

10 hours ago
top

FTDI Removes Driver From Windows Update That Bricked Cloned Chips

tibit Re:No FDTI (482 comments)

The counterfeit chip is an off-the-shelf microcontroller. That's why it's cheaper. Whoever packages it didn't have to do all the silicon and driver R&D. They wrote a little bit of firmware that makes it behave like an FTDI chip and that's it.

10 hours ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:The good news (687 comments)

Fry's is "mainstream" in an alternate universe. They sell stuff that the real electronics distributors woudln't touch with a long pole. Newark, Mouser, Allied Electronics, Digi-Key, ELFA, Distrelec are the big names. There's also Jameco, although I would only buy branded brand name stuff there. If it's an FTDI converter not branded FTDI, I wouldn't get it at Jameco.

11 hours ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:Bad for Biz (687 comments)

There are some dirt cheap USB-toting MCUs that could be used instead. Way cheaper than any FTDI chips. Heck, IIRC even Zilog has caught up with times and has something to offer here for cheap. ZILOG, man :) I mean, Zilog has been a trainwreck for such a long time.

yesterday
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

All you need to do is to use any VID/PID combination for which an .inf file is bundled with Windows :)

yesterday
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:What irks me the most (687 comments)

"What process are they assigned a PID?" They start up with defaults in the EEPROM, and there are also hard-coded defaults in the silicon. The silicon tests the EEPROM area for a correct CRC, if there's a CRC mismatch, the hardwired defaults are used. So, the process on power-up might be:

1. A read attempt is done from external EEPROM. If the reads fail or the CRC doesn't match, the data is not used. Otherwise, it's copied to internal RAM.
2. A read attempt is done from the internal EEPROM (if such exists). If the reads fail or the CRC doesn't match, the data is not used. Otherwise, it's copied to internal RAM.
3. If RAM hasn't been initialized yet, it's initialized with hardwired defaults (copied from a masked ROM).
4. The state machine moves into a "ready to connect" state.

yesterday
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

The EEPROM layout can't be different since the PC-based tools access it directly, and the counterfeit chips would simply not work for anyone who puts their own Manufacturer string in them etc. The "command sequence" is completely PID-agnostic on the wire. What goes on between the USB host and the FTDI device is a control request to write an EEPROM byte at a certain address. The chip doesn't care about the meaning of this byte until it's power cycled, and even then, it won't care if the CRC at the end of the configuration area is wrong.

So, I back out of my claim the FTDI merely does a wrap-around to erase the PID. It also has to update the CRC, since otherwise the chip would ignore the contents of the EEPROM and start up with default VID, PID and other configuration. What they do is very much deliberate.

As for the chips with the built-in EEPROM, as I've stated, it's rather simple to attach an external, pre-programmed EEPROM. Heck, perhaps it'd be a good thing to offer as a product for people who wish to unbrick their devices - as long as the counterfeit chips implement this. Perhaps the counterfeits don't implement it, though? I really wonder how much do the counterfeit FT232R chips do as far as emulation of the real FTDI chips. Do they, for example, offer the clock outputs, like the real FT232R chips do? I bet they don't, and I bet that it'd be rather trivial for an amateur to check if a given chip is real or not by doing one well-placed behavioral test like that (specifically, set one CBUS output to 48MHz clock). After all, the counterfeit chips are really just a standard microcontroller with masked ROM. How many mack-programmable microcontrollers can output the system clock on one of 5 GPIO pins? The counterfeits aren't custom silicon, after all.

While on that topic, I have to check if some FTDI chips that I have with wildly off-spec silicon oscillator frequency are genuine or not. If they aren't, DigiKey is gonna get some talking to :)

yesterday
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

I was talking about CDC. If FTDI chips did implement the CDC, then they'd work out of the box on Vista and higher, and of course on OS X and Linux. Now since the FTDI chips don't implement the CDC, Microsoft doesn't provide drivers for them, and FTDI has to have their own drivers bundled with Windows and available via Windows Update.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:In later news... (687 comments)

Perhaps the only way to spot a fake is to attempt a config EEPROM write to an address that's larger than the size of the EEPROM. On FTDI chips, such writes fail (I checked). On fakes, perhaps they wrap around... Still, they could have perhaps written somewhere safe, like at the end of the data area, not at the beginning. But then, perhaps the wraparound bug is an off-by-one and you can only kill the PID that way. Who knows.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

The driver has no legitimate reason to do any EEPROM writes that are expected to succeed. It'd decrease the life of the EEPROM - it only has a finite number of writes. The driver can, of course, attempt to do EEPROM writes that are expected to fail. Perhaps the counterfeit chips don't fail such writes, but instead do the wrong thing and wrap around as you suggest.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:The good news (687 comments)

First of all, the FTDI chips themselves have no firmware. They are implemented using fixed function logic IIRC. Even if they did have firmware, it'd be on a mask ROM and wouldn't be changeable. What FTDI chips and their clones do have is a configuration EEPROM. On some chips it's internal, but they do support external EEPROM too. That's where the VID, PID and USB descriptors are stored, allowing vendors to use those chips with their own manufacture, serial number and device descriptor strings, as well as their own device-specific VID/PID. Heck, you can get blocks of PIDs from FTDI so that you don't have to buy your own VID.

I don't know what sort of functionality does the driver use to discriminate between legit chips and copies, but it's possible that it could do something like attempt to write an EEPROM byte at an address that's too large. Perhaps on the genuine chip, such write is ignored, but on the counterfeit chip the write wraps around. That'd be an implementation bug in the chip, pure and simple. The negative effect (zeroing out of the PID) is a bug, even if it's exploited by the driver. I wouldn't shed any tears for the people who use the fake stuff. You can buy FTDI-branded serial converters from mainstream vendors, there's no need to buy Chinese copycat crap.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:The good news (687 comments)

You're assuming that there are patents involved. Not all clones are protected by anything. In fact, last time I looked into it, it's perfectly OK to make functional clones of FTDI chips, as long as you don't use their drivers. If you use their drivers, you must purchase their silicon, or license the driver from them.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:The good news (687 comments)

Except that the driver is provided through Windows Update and you don't need to accept its license to have it installed. You just need to select the optional hardware updates and click "Install".

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:The good news (687 comments)

Their drivers come with licensing terms, but it's arguable whether such terms hold any water when all you did was accept a Windows Update... Is the driver available via Windows Update the same one as downloadable from their website?

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

The change "mechanism" is to write into the configuration EEPROM. That EEPROM is accessible as a "generic" memory area. It is only interpreted and copied into configuration registers when the device powers up, and maybe on USB disconnect but I don't recall the details. For older devices that had external EEPROM, it's trivial to reprogram by shorting the CS line to VCC, powering it up, then re-writing the config EEPROM (BTDT). For newer devices, you need to attach an external EEPROM, IIRC they will recognize one and use it if present. All you need for that is a little bed-of-nails adapter board with an EEPROM.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

The FTDI USB bridges most definitely do not support CDC. If they did, there'd be no need for an FTDI driver on anything other than Windows XP. Besides, those devices have no firmware. They have some configuration bits and identifier strings in an on-chip EEPROM - well, not all of them, some require an external EEPROM.

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

CDC is a reasonably simple protocol and I don't know where you got the idea that it's somehow inherently power hungry. I have an implementation that fits in 2kB of flash...

2 days ago
top

FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.

tibit Re:On the other hand... (687 comments)

I've always been buying them from reputable vendors (big names like Newark, Mouser, ...) so I don't really have that problem. Where the heck do people buy their chips?

2 days ago

Submissions

top

MRI Magnets Cause Nystagmus

tibit tibit writes  |  about 3 years ago

tibit writes "In an interesting twist on "it's so old it's new again", Johns Hopkins researchers led by Dale Roberts found what must have been causing much confusion for doctors the world over: strong external magnetic field can stimulate the semicircular canals, causing vertigo and nystagmus (pendular eye motion). It's a textbook case of Lorentz force in action: our angular rate gyros, the semicircular canals in the middle ear, filled with endolymph, have a ionic current flowing across. In magnetic field, the current produces a force that pushes the lymph along the channel, causing stimulation of the cupula — a pressure sensor at the end of the channel. This is interpreted by the brain as rotation of head in space, and causes a nystagmus that's supposed to stabilize the image on the retina. Of course the subject is laying down and not spinning in space, and the mismatch between inertial measurements coming from the ear and real situation causes vertigo."
Link to Original Source

Journals

tibit has no journal entries.

Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?