Preferred outcome after VW software fakery ...
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Combination of most of the above (Score:5, Insightful)
Say what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, you want the same punishment for the coders as the guys who write their checks and control their work? Punish the whole company which further penalizes the working person who did not make the decision to cheat?
No wonder most societies, including the US, are swirling the bowl and moving down.
How about holding people in charge responsible and accountable for their actions, instead of making everyone suffer for executives behaving poorly (perhaps illegally)?
Fire the management side, make them return all of their bonuses (civil suit), and if criminal prosecute them! The "punish the company because the captain F'd up" mentality is WRONG! It does not work, and we have centuries of both private and Government (see Military) evidence to prove my assertion.
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Those coders *did* make the decision to cheat. They could have refused to write the offending code, even quitting in the worst case. Again, lives at stake.
Re:Say what? (Score:4, Interesting)
Those coders *did* make the decision to cheat. They could have refused to write the offending code, even quitting in the worst case. Again, lives at stake.
At the moment, I'd give them a pass. If whistleblowers were treated differently, then I'd lambaste the coders. They're currently given the choice between a paycheck and doing something that may be wrong**, or quitting and looking for employment elsewhere (which may be limited due to non-compete's, and others may be doing the same thing).
** the whole "lives at stake thing" is a huge exaggeration... there is firmware in control of things, and if your trusting it to do its job normally, then your trusting those coding it to do that job ok, so why not trust them to put in an "if" statement, which is it already chock full of.
Chasing the exec(s) that was ultimately responsible is just going to produce a scapegoat, or someone willing to fall on their sword. How will that change things overall?
Damage the company itself. The company, if damaged enough, will need to make corrections to avoid such situations in the future. IE: make it more profitable to the company, management, employees, etc to do the right thing. If they keep getting in trouble and it significantly damages their bottom line, that will damage the exec's bonuses as well, and heads should roll to get rid of the bad seeds... but let them manage that (or not, and they just go bankrupt, setting an example for all others... and no bailouts this time).
The system is designed to encourage this shit at this point, and that's the problem. Emission tests are essentially a problem to try to solve, and creative solutions are praised on the programming community, especially if all the stats look better in all respects.
If we're not going to change the response to morally correct whistleblowers (award instead of demonizing), then change the test so these fail, kick those off the market, and go back to the game.
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I think the "lives at stake" bit is related to the fact that emissions and asthma rates are linked.
Yes, and I'll care about that as soon as all vehicles on the road have to pass the same tests regardless of age.
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OR lawn mowers
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Yes, and I'll care about that as soon as all vehicles on the road have to pass the same tests regardless of age.
AND aftermarket modification.
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I think the "lives at stake" bit is related to the fact that emissions and asthma rates are linked.
Yes, and I'll care about that as soon as all vehicles on the road have to pass the same tests regardless of age.
And not just vehicles on the road, but *all* fossil fuel motors whether in trucks, heavy equipment, stationary industrial uses or ocean going ships.
Re:Say what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah! If somebody else is being an asshole, why shouldn't you?
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have asthma and NOx levels are not what I am worried about, particulates and unburned hydrocarbons are my concerns. Diesels run lean all the time, so gassers tend to release more HC than they do, even if it's only while waiting for the catalyst to heat up. And they both release about the same amount of particulates, so that's a non-issue. NOx was a big deal when it was being released in large quantities, but the current standards are so low it's difficult to determine if they even need to be there.
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Interesting)
That said - if the requirements were written so that it was blatantly obvious they were writing a circumvention device, that is different.
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Those coders *did* make the decision to cheat. They could have refused to write the offending code, even quitting in the worst case. Again, lives at stake.
This kind of thing can be done by a single coder, with a very small change. The code to detect the connection to the ECU has a valid reason to be there. The code for differing emissions profiles has a valid reason to be there (different rules for different markets, plus test tunes that stress various components, so there will be many tunes in the codebase). The "cheating" code just connects the dots. Perhaps "everybody" knew what was going on, perhaps not, but we can't assume.
Also the "lives at stake" idea is nonsense. There's lots of life-safety code in a car, to be sure, but selecting the "tune" for the car between already-tested configs isn't life-safety code. And tailpipe emissions in the US are really quite low now - no one is dying because of this cheating. (Cars 25 years ago were already around 1/10000th the emissions of pre-cat, leaded gas cars, and we're far below that level in new cars today.)
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Informative)
tailpipe emissions in the US are really quite low now - no one is dying because of this cheating.
Nobody is dying immediately, but it would be naive to think there is not an indirect effect.
According to Martin Williams, professor of air quality research at King’s College London, diesel cars account for roughly 5,800 premature deaths a year in the UK alone. Other experts put the figure even higher.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/col... [dailymail.co.uk]
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Daily Mail link, to an article about how global warming zealots have killed thousands, just oozes credibility. Well, it oozes something.
Re:Say what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you attempting to claim that the coders could have said "no" and not been terminated or black balled into quitting? Or are you attempting to claim that this was done by some rogue coder and management was completely blind sited? Do you believe these coders would have been given a good reference for going the high road and blowing the whistle? Stock holders would have voted to give whistle blowers huge bonus checks instead of the executives getting their millions?
All of those things are bullshit, and you know it.
Show me evidence that the coder(s) did this on their own without direction and I'll surely agree that the coder(s) should be recipients of the same punishment as the executives. Without evidence you are simply ignoring the problem (intentional or otherwise) and attempting to blow smoke.
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Lives at stake? Seriously? Have you READ the regulations on diesel emissions? So, there's a few more nitrates, you are *burning* the diesel, where do the regulators expect this stuff to go? Basically you have to hobble the vehicle in order to pass US emissions tests. The only thing VW got by doing this was a leg up on the competition. (assuming the competition wasn't doing the same thing... time will tell)
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The way the emissions laws are written encourages what VW did. VW would have been just fine had their engines always operated under the "test" settings and they would have produced more pollutants per gallon of fuel burned. US emissions just want a certain percentage of stuff in the tailpipe. Use up power by turning a fan to push "clean" air into the tailpipe instead of having only exhaust go in and you are fine.
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Take it up to the executive level and fire the app
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Also, yes, fine the company and the fine should be treble damages.
Many believe the current EPA standard for NOx emissions to be needlessly strict, and in fact specifically designed to prevent the proliferation of diesel engines because the US carmakers aren't ready for that because they've been dicking around buying legislation to prevent them instead of working on making them. The actual damages may be negligible. All we know is that at certain times, the vehicles put out 10-40x the allowable concentration. We don't know what percentage of the time that happens, is it on
Re: Say what? (Score:2)
The coders don't make the decisions on when the code shall be used. Car manufacturers have a large number of code sets for various test purposes. Some are for testing the extreme bounds to ensure that mechanical failures won't be a problem on sold vehicles even when aftermarket tuners have done their work - or when the drivers abuses the vehicles.
The decision about which code and map to use is a marketing decision. That includes a calculated risk of what's possibe to get away with and customer appeal. You c
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Hold the Board and everyone holding a Cxx or "Chairman" title responsible. All members who were there during any part of the years it applies.
And I mean hard jail and monetary fines for them.
The ONLY way to fix corporate corruption is top down. We shouldn't punish the people holding the stock at this moment, nor those that were being directed by those above (programmers). They knew, or should have known. And if they didn't know, they should have. That's the end of that.
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No. If someone is working for a company that expects them to make unethical choices to fulfill their job duties, or to directly violate laws (I'm sure they never TOLD them they were breaking the law but it's not relevant...) they have a moral obligation to resign or push until the ethical dilemma is resolved.
If that doesn't happen they deserve any and all negative consequences just as much as every other person involved at the organization.
A D and F (Score:2)
I'd also like to see if other companies have done similar things, and there are all sorts of reasons to open source the code.
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Besides which, until someone shows verifiable evidence that the coders involved in that either had no idea what they were doing, or that they were being threatened with violence or death, or someone else was being held hostage, unless they coded the damned things the way they wanted it coded, then they're partially responsible; as some have pointed out in other threads the 'I was only following orders' defense is no defense at all, not any more than it was for Nazi soldiers working in death camps.
I'm just curious why you argue against yourself there?
You say that unless they were "being threaded with violence or death", yet then go on to talk about Nazi soldiers working in death camps.
Do you have any idea what happened to Nazi soldiers who refused to follow orders? They were shot.
So why does everyone thing "just following orders" is NEVER a defense when the other option was death?
Re: Say what? (Score:2)
Hitler was already invoked because he ordered VW to be created.
Re: Say what? (Score:2)
Most soldiers weren't punished, only a few that had a bad record - often officers.
If soldiers know that they have a possibility to not suffer punishment then they also don't have a reason to fight to the last drop of blood.
Re: Say what? (Score:2)
Often it's not the coders. In engine management systems it's often the same code controlled by different data mappings. Under development there are a large number of mappings developed for testing. In an engine there are several maps that the engine can switch between for optimal result.
What happened was that there was a management decision on which maps to use under which conditions, and that's beyond the coders horizon.
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Now lets do a vote on what we think will ACTUALLY happen.
I'm guessing a slap on the wrist for some low-level employees, a few million $ fine, moratorium on sales of the specific type and model until firmware upgraded (should take just a few days), a wider investigation into just Tesla (initiated and funded by Texas), a change in current EPA testing practices (without the required budget), more closely guarded source control to prevent another "rogue employee" from doing something like this "all by himself a
Missing (Score:5, Insightful)
There should be an "all of the above" option.
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Agreed..
It coulud also work as a a multi-select.
Coders may not be the right targets for flogging (Score:5, Informative)
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According to this report - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vw-sc... [ibtimes.co.uk] , the software was provided by Bosch who also warned VW that it should only be used for testing.
Yay, plausible deniability!
I would love to hear why they would need to test for a condition that requires emissions reductions only when a vehicle is being tested for emissions.
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I would love to hear why they would need to test for a condition that requires emissions reductions only when a vehicle is being tested for emissions.
Here's a car with an empty firmware. ... someone discovers an easy way to make all the numbers look significantly better (could have even been an inside joke) ... TADA!
Here's a bunch of test cases (emissions, performance, etc).
Make them all meet or exceed the goals.
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Here's a car with an empty firmware. ... someone discovers an easy way to make all the numbers look significantly better (could have even been an inside joke) ... TADA!
Here's a bunch of test cases (emissions, performance, etc).
Make them all meet or exceed the goals.
Yep... VW is a huge company with a lot of smart people running it, it may well be that simple...
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Not enough (Score:2)
We should also give a one year jail sentence to all members of the board of directors. Maybe this could send the signal that they should choose execs more carefully.
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Sure... what crime would you charge them with?
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fraud
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Fair enough, but I think you'd have a hard time getting that charge to stick, since they weren't involved in any of the decision making process.
And no, you don't get to just make up new laws after the fact because you want vengeance.
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since they weren't involved in any of the decision making process.
Yes they were. Ignorance is not an excuse. AND the only way to stop this shit from happening is to start charging the Board and all Cxx and Chairman level directors. We cannot absolve them via bureaucratic layers any longer. This is why the peons always get screwed by those in charge.
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Yes they were.
It is quite possible that you don't understand what a Board of Directors does.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Typical duties of boards of directors include:
- governing the organization by establishing broad policies and objectives;
- selecting, appointing, supporting and reviewing the performance of the chief executive;
- ensuring the availability of adequate financial resources;
- approving annual budgets;
- accounting to the stakeholders for the organization's performance;
- setting the salaries and compensat
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Fraud against the buyers
It would be interesting to see how you'd show to a jury that the board of directors had knowledge of and actively took part in a fraud against the buyers.
Now if you found evidence that they had prior knowledge of all this, you might have a case, but I'd be shocked if that existed.
Fraud against the various governmental agencies who set the standards and devise the tests as well as the European taxing authorities as the vehicles were improperly classified and thus improperly taxed.
Just curious what you think a board of directors does. I suspect it isn't what you think it is.
Free beer? (Score:4, Funny)
They are a German company. We should make them give us free beer!
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They are a German company. We should make them give us free beer!
At this point, I'd have to wonder if they just slapped a different label on bottles of Budweiser.
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You really think Americans could stand even the lightest German beer? LOL.
Why? Does it somehow manage to taste even more disgusting than regular beer?
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Well, it doesn't until they filter it through their old gym socks.
Why flog the coders? (Score:2)
The coders are really nothing but footsholdiers. We should really be MUCH more discriminating when it comes to placing responsibility in big corporations: the ones with the most power and most income should be held the most accountable.
Note that I am really not at all against flogging for execs.
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Wow... footsholdiers??? You totally just summoned Sean Connery right there!
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Why punish the radio operator at Auschwitz?
You shouldn't... he was probably neck deep into it by the time it all got going, and by that point he has no ability to raise his hand and say, "uh guys, maybe we shouldn't be killing people".
He would just get tossed into the pile with them.
missing option (Score:2)
Can I get an "all of the above?"
Repeal the DMCA will always be my pick (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't matter if it's a poll about pie vs cake or anything else. If repeal the DMCA is an option that's the one I'm picking.
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Indeed. VW is a German company. The DMCA is a US law. So suggesting that we repeal the DMCA because of this makes exactly no sense. Nevertheless, of all the suggested outcomes, it's the one I'd most prefer, so I also voted for it! :)
boost to electric vehicles? (Score:2)
I suspect many people who bought "clean diesel" passenger cars were strongly motivated by fuel economy. At least in the US, people who buy diesel cars are not your average car consumer -- they know a bit more about the car, and care about how its working. I suspect that a lot of these people would also be the sort who could get behind electric alternatives (assuming they meet the individual's needs, of course).
I used to own a diesel Jetta because it was inexpensive to drive, and had an engine that would las
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As for total electrics aka the Tesla's of the world, they're not viable until you can charge them fully in the amount of time it would take to pump 15-19 gallons of fuel. Right now I can drive six hours from my place to my folks with a 20 minute stop to stretch and answer mother nature's call. Last I saw in the Tesla literature, that same drive would require 3 to 4 30 minute stops to complete. At 4 stops, that 6 hour trip just became 8 ours.
Don't understand your math here... at 75 MPH for 5.66 hours is 425
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No need to own 2 cars. A PHEV like the Volt could cover most commute ranges and still be useful for long range trips.
EPA (Score:2)
I think we need to re-evaluate the EPA's standard if a bunch of car companies are found guilty of this (and it seems they are). It's likely that the engineers were given the impossible task of meeting the EPA standard while still having a high rate of performance and efficiency. At certain speeds, it may be more efficient on CO2 emissions than a gasoline engine getting 30mpg vs its 50mpg, but emit more sulphur and other particulates. The engineers, maybe rightly so, thought that the EPA standard was bogus i
How about A NEW CAR (Score:3)
Everyone that bought one of the fraudulent cars gets a NEW CAR to replace the fraudulent car no matter how old the original is. This would be far better than having a huge fine go to the government, and it would cost VW a shitload of money. Plus it gets the fraudulent cars off the street. A win win win.
Re:How about A NEW CAR (Score:4, Funny)
That's not a bad idea. Since Volkswagen owns Audi and Porsche, I'm thinking they should give them an Audi R8 or a Porsche 918 Spider.
Won't help the environment any, but...
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Refunds to all buyers of affected cars (Score:2)
Why should the US and EU regulators reap the big fines when it is the buyers that suffer? Who is going to want to buy those cars that have issues and may not pass inspection? I understand that VW might be forced to fix those cars, but face it, they mucked with the test because to get the performance they advertised they had to fudge the emissions. Now the end buyers have to deal with a car that either passes the emissions with poor performance or pollutes with the better performance. That isn't what the
Isaac Asimov's Robot mysteries/debugging (Score:2)
My "Something Else" (Score:2)
Because I couldn't vote for more than one option, my combo vote is:
- Big fine for VW from US and EU regulators
- Wider investigation into other makers' practices
- Repeal of the DMCA
- Mandatory open source code for all car firmware
Floggings are optional, with the execs getting more than the coders.
Something else.. (Score:2)
External combustion engine? Would that make obtaining complete combustion comparatively trivial?
Wondering if you can make a $15000 50 mpg with a steam engine instead of a gasoline or diesel one.
But was what VW did actually *bad*? (Score:2)
The consequences of the hack were threefold:
* They improved acceleration when not under test conditions.
* They improved MPG when not under test conditions.
* They worsened NOx emissions compared to test conditions.
If they improved MPG then it follows that CO2 emissions were actually LOWER in real world driving than when it was being tested.
So with the (illegal) hack, the car emits less CO2 but more NOx. Which is worse...CO2 or NOx?
CO2 obviously causes global climate change - NOx produces acid rain, smog and
Jail time (Score:2)
Public flogging is not not an adequate description of what needs to happen to the individuals. We need actual jail time assured for the guilty. Many people knew what was going on and stayed silent, several did the deed, and all fitting those descriptions deserve jail time and clawed back bonuses, etc.
Bought On Faith, Left Holding the Bag (Score:2)
They are hardly alone... (Score:2)
Diesel truck manufacturers were found guilty of similar violations along with Ford later and neither paid nearly as much, nor was there any criminal violations proposed or enforced in any of the previous incidents
http://www.motherjones.com/env... [motherjones.com]
Jail time? (Score:2)
If an ordinary person polluted the environment as much as these clowns have, there'd almost certainly be jail time. Economic losses can be repaid with money, pimping out the environment for money won't bring it back. Because I pretty much assume that whatever the fine will be, it won't be used to save the environment...
Security by obscurity (Score:2)
Just thinking out loud, and I fully expect to get flamed out of existence for this. But I see a risk in open-sourcing all the ECU software. These systems are generally closed to the outside world, they generally don't have connections to the internet or wireless networks. This means that they have a lot of the protections of air-gapped systems and an air gap system doesn't need to be protected from the same threats.
In my mind then this means that there are likely to be lots and lots and lots of exploitab
The sensible alternative - they all pass (Score:2)
Why not reduce emissions requirements to the point where all the existing VW cars pass?
After all, cities have been seeing a good reduction in pollution over the years, even with VW (and probably other companies) "cheating" already.
Then all of the drivers who had these cars would not be punished with an "upgrade" that crippled the car, and emissions would not get any worse.
In some senses I think VW should be lauded for striking back against increasingly unreasonable, and unnecessary regulation - see point ab
How about nothing? (Score:2)
They outdid the environmental bureaucrats, which is a nice thing for those wanting to drive something larger than a Trabant.
Besides, we don't see many of them driving what they impose on others.
Punish management. (Score:2)
I think the coders should get a break, management should never put them in a position to act unlawfully. It was forced on them by management and they had to do it or loose their jobs. If you were put into that position you too would choose to implement the code rather then loose your job. The blame should lie squarely on management, we need to make an example out of them with jail time so that other executives learn to act ethically. Without punishment people will always see a benefit to cheating. Managemen
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I think the coders should get a break, management should never put them in a position to act unlawfully. It was forced on them by management and they had to do it or loose their jobs.
Change "coders" to "guards" and "management" to "Nazis" and see how that sounds to you.
Following orders to do something illegal should never give you a pass to escape punishment.
Punishment list (Score:2)
1) Buy back all affected vehicles at original cost.
2) Huge, and I mean HUGE fines for VW.
3) Jail time for virtually everyone involved. Real jail time, not this "suspended sentence" crap.
4) Repeal of the DMCA.
Get Real (Score:2)
Buy back all affected vehicles at original cost.
And you are already done.
How much money do you think VW has?
Is it really a good idea to put hundreds of thousands of people out of work over slightly higher emissions? Because the culmination of what you and others are proposing would be the company shuts down. Again, over slightly higher than expected emissions...
How about... (Score:3)
How about a repeal of emissions standards and adoption of higher fuel efficiency standards instead? You know, prevent global warming instead of prevent smog?
I know, I know, one choice only (Score:2)
But this situation calls for repeal of the DMCA and, most especially, mandatory open sourcing for all automotive firmware.
All of the above plus death (Score:2)
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Because there's nothing wrong with diesels, they just aren't quite as performant with the environmentally friendly gear as VW wanted you to believe. Electric is great, but isn't going to overcome the need for liquid fueled autos until we get the electric charging infrastructure in place and get prices down on EVs. And of course, they'll probably have a place in more rural areas for the foreseeable future.
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So what you want is to force VW into bankruptcy? I'd think there would be a quicker way to go about that goal.
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So what you want is to force VW into bankruptcy? I'd think there would be a quicker way to go about that goal.
Yep, I'm seeing that attitude all over the place...
I've posted this before, and it remains true. VW is a large company with a handful of people who made a really poor decision who need to be punished for it.
But running the company into bankruptcy isn't the solution.
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If the companies choose to do business in this manner, and get caught.. Kick them out of the country where the offience happened..
Companies don't make choices, people do.
Sure, kick VW out, they form a new company and come back again, what's the difference?
A company is just a piece of paper, you want to attack that. You're missing the point.
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The correctly spelled word is 'catalysts'.
Believe it or not, your car is killing people. So are a lot of old cars of all types. When a company like VW cheats on tests it sets all of us back on cleaning the air.
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I believe a 1980s car that does 40 to 50 mpg has the least indirect pollution : making a new Prius will make a lot of CO2, use resources etc. ; old car emits few CO2 from the fuel already. A few cheap parts and consumables to keep it going.
On the other hand it has the worst direct pollution, i.e. just what comes out the tail pipe.
I'm sure the car doesn't do black smoke but the small particulates and the NOx are invisible.
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He said he didn't know the correct spelling. I provided it to him.
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> We had fine and pretty clean engines 25 years ago
post a video with you breathing the air coming from the exhaust for half an hour.
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Only if you do the same with a modern automobile.
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Your local coal or gas powered electricity-generation plant will suffice. Or equal time in a nuclear reactor, or tied to a blade of a windmill (swatting away the birds), or in the outlet tubes of the hydro-electricity dam, or on that solar tower where birds burst into flames while flying by.
Take your pick. A half hour in the direct path of power generation doesn't seem to be very fun, no matter the source.
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Not sure about that? Tanning on a tropical beach somewhere sounds pretty good. bonus points if a margarita is involved.
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Didn't know the tropical beaches were producing electricity.
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Admittingly it has no fine-dust filter. But i also believe it's far less polluting simply because it's efficiency
You believing something and it being true aren't the same thing.
Your 27 year old vehicle is horrible for the environment and it is likely putting out more crap into the air than a dozen new VW cars do. (if not more)
We had fine and pretty clean engines 25 years ago!
No we didn't, vehicles in 2015 are much cleaner than from 25 years ago.
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It's not the government's place to mandate emissions requirements.
Actually, yes it is...
"promote the general Welfare"
That is right out of the US Constitution. If you drive a polluting vehicle, you're harming my welfare.
Setting emissions standards is promoting the general welfare of the people of the US.
The free market will change and adapt to provide what the people want.
It did, people voted in politicians that heard what people want, which is clean air, and passed various laws from the EPA to the Clean Air Act.
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No, I'm really not... There are indeed things that they overreach on, but setting emission standards is not one of them...
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The exec go to jail, everyone involved has their profits seized, and VW gets broken up and auctioned off.
That would probably be an effective deterrent to other companies who are considering this sort of behavior.
Break up the company and send the execs to prison.