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Tech Worker Groups Boycott IBM, Infosys, Manpower

Soulskill posted about 3 months ago | from the can't-we-all-just-get-along dept.

IBM 234

itwbennett writes: "Three U.S. tech worker groups have launched a labor boycott of IBM, Infosys and Manpower, saying the companies have engaged in a pattern that discourages U.S. workers from applying for U.S. IT jobs by tailoring employment ads toward overseas workers. For its part, Infosys disputed the charges, saying that 'it is incorrect to allude that we exclude or discourage U.S. workers. Today, we are recruiting for over 440 active openings across 20 states in the U.S.' Representatives from IBM and Manpower didn't respond to requests for comment on the boycott."

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I'm boycotting IBM (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159553)

Because IBM advertises on Slashdot and Slashdot Beta sucks.

Same Manpower as in Canada? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159569)

Useless thieves, liars and parasites.

What a world. If I'd have known how people really are (and believed it) when I was younger, I'd have become a plumber or a lawyer. Either way you're dealing with human shit and no one can outsource you.

Fuck tech jobs.

Re:Same Manpower as in Canada? (5, Interesting)

Grishnakh (216268) | about 3 months ago | (#47159755)

Actually, they're outsourcing law jobs to India these days. They can't outsource things like arguing in a courtroom, but a lot of the clerical stuff they can.

Re:Same Manpower as in Canada? (4, Funny)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 3 months ago | (#47159981)

An interesting experiment would be to change my name to Ashokar Gupta, and say I'm an orphan, in the U.S. with a H1B visa. The results would be fascinating.

Re:Same Manpower as in Canada? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160773)

An interesting experiment would be to change my name to Ashokar Gupta, and say I'm an orphan, in the U.S. with a H1B visa. The results would be fascinating.

That's a great idea. I wish Bright Future Jobs, the Programmers Guild or WashTech - or a newspaper or a government agency - would do the following:

1) Check with your legal department, to make sure you're not doing anything illegal.

2) Write 50 resumes that sound like the applicant is an American. Make sure that the resumes are are generic and forgettable, so that duplicates aren't remembered.

3) Copy the resumes. In the copies, change the contact information and university that they attended, so that the applicant sounds like they come from India (or some other non-US country).

4) Send in all of the resumes, and see which ones get results. If there's a big bias against Americans in the results, publicize the heck out of it.

The hiring companies might reply to the American-sounding applicants just for appearance's sake, but not intend to hire any Americans. I don't know how to test that kind of bias.

Re:Same Manpower as in Canada? (2)

umghhh (965931) | about 3 months ago | (#47159763)

Technically you can still outsource a plumber job to another company. I guess you meant offshoring not being really possible for plumbers and until technology does not replace that job completely this and lawyers stay a good option. Surely due to currently existing legal limitations one still needs lawyers in flesh standing in front of the judge. But research can be outsourced [economist.com] already.

Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (1)

Andy_Poloni (920253) | about 3 months ago | (#47159613)

These guys have been doing this for over a decade ... someone's slow to the party.

Re:Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159717)

Everyone figured it out a decade ago. The difference between these guys and people who just bitch about it in slashdot, are that these guys are the first to have the balls to try and do something about, however ineffectual it may wind up being.

Re:Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (1)

Andy_Poloni (920253) | about 3 months ago | (#47159773)

They may have balls but not apparently a calendar or a watch ... or they just apparently move really, really slowly.

Re:Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (2)

Last_Available_Usern (756093) | about 3 months ago | (#47159825)

So what you're saying is the second anyone infringes on the rights of a group you belong to you automatically band together in protest, even if it's at the potential expense of your livlihood? Gathering legitmate evidence to make a reasonable case for your claim takes time. Rallying troops together takes time. Planning for possibly not having a job if this backfires takes time. I guess fortunate for you that firing off a [weird] rant on Slashdot doesn't take any time at all.

Re:Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160307)

`So what you're saying is the second anyone infringes on the rights of a group you belong to you automatically band together in protest, even if it's at the potential expense of your livlihood?`

No, what I'm saying is that I personally adjust very quickly to that kind of thing (like staying away from companies who I know embrace those kinds of practices) and find it quite surprising when others do not.

`Gathering legitmate evidence to make a reasonable case for your claim takes time. Rallying troops together takes time.`

I'm sorry, but it doesn't take 10-15 years. The people who got the short end of these practices are already either out of the business or have retired which means not much was done for them and that this effort is more than a little a) late and, b) moot.

`Planning for possibly not having a job if this backfires takes time.`

If you're in the IT business for any amount of time and haven't learned you need to be continuously looking for a new job, then you probably need to find another career.

` I guess fortunate for you that firing off a [weird] rant on Slashdot doesn't take any time at all.`

It takes about as much time as it does for most people to learn to avoid the companies these guys have decided to boycott after 10-15 years.

I'll repeat what I originally said ... someone's watch is SLOW.

Re:Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (4, Interesting)

umghhh (965931) | about 3 months ago | (#47160147)

I find this funny. Not that people are treated like objects but your statement because it reminded me of a book I read few years back: 'London Hanged'. What was described there was the cycle of recurring violence in London (not sure anymore 16. or 17. century):
  1. industry (cloth making or clockwork making etc) just developing, new skilled workers well paid
  2. industry well established, workers paid less and less as methods are established and new less skilled workers needed.
  3. riots, army on the streets, the particular industry regulated, better minimum conditions secured
  4. the industry off-shores big chunk of work to the Netherlands
  5. new blossoming industry is being developed - go to step 1 above

The most visible part were riots and there were times in London where these were happening with tiring regularity approx every 20y or so.

The whole thing about how evil humans are is true and at the same time untrue. Some basic regulations are needed so that people are not ripped off. If industry can survive only if they pay hunger wages then maybe it there is no reason for it to exist locally or some helping hand is needed, not necessarily in form of cheap credit or release from regulation but some industrial policy like the one Germans have would do something. OC for that one would need to have educated work force. BTW: Germans complain about missing hands on the floor all the time because people are not ready to work for money that are being offered. Seems to be the same story all over. What seems to have been working for England back then was that once one industry was not as profitable as it used to be a new one came around. The only unpleasant part were the hunger and riots on falling part of the curve.

Re:Did someone just figure this out *NOW*?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160625)

Aww...where's the love for our brown brothers?
Our Indian brothers are among the world's foremost practitioners in gang rape, motor vehicle accidents, and welfare fraud.
I don't get it.

Fight the power (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159661)

Here's hoping you're successful.

Pay versus billing rate. (3, Insightful)

pigiron (104729) | about 3 months ago | (#47159689)

Anyone who has worked for any of the three should know by now that they pay their IT workers about 20 to 30% of what they bill the client at best. Avoid body shops like the plague if you want to make decent money.

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159795)

so that's only a little low. White collar employees cost double their salary, without figuring in any profit or risk. Employment tax, insurance, vacation, HR, payroll, legal, and, for some reason, they insist on paved parking lots and toilets that don't smell.

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (1)

pigiron (104729) | about 3 months ago | (#47160061)

Those taxes and insurance are taken out of the sub-contractors already low portion of the billing rate.

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160015)

Not only that but some companies stuff 12 indians into a 3 bedroom home. People were actually sleeping on bunkbeds and the living room had sheets tacked to the ceiling for privacy.

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (1)

pigiron (104729) | about 3 months ago | (#47160439)

Not a lot of room left over for cricket gear. Hahahaha!

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (1)

retchdog (1319261) | about 3 months ago | (#47160447)

i don't understand; were they contractually required to sleep there?

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160661)

The chains are the illegals to put on, it would be against the law so, no...

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (1)

BosstonesOwn (794949) | about 3 months ago | (#47160679)

Not true... I worked at IBM as a contractor and was compensated very well.

I chose to leave for a better job/ higher paying role with benefits. The real problem is they are using contractors for a huge part of the us work force but paying pretty good comp for them, so that they don't have to cover all the little things. Like benefits....

I chose to leave after being the primary responsable admin in the group, who was denied a job in that group 4 times, due to "not hiring in the US at this time" their process for this stuff is completely short sighted. They can pay people 1/8th less and cover the benefits, but refuse to because if thier numbers don't look good it's not easy to dump a perm employee, where as a contractor they can just put on furlow or ask them not to come back.

Re:Pay versus billing rate. (1)

pigiron (104729) | about 3 months ago | (#47160765)

If you think they can cover the benefits for 1/8 less you are dreaming. Try 40% at minimum and that doesn't cover job security or defined retirement benefits or 401k partial matching.

Why hasn't the State-run Media mentioned this? (0, Troll)

Squidlips (1206004) | about 3 months ago | (#47159709)

Why hasn't the state-run media (i.e. the networks and major newspapers) ever even mentioned "U.S. tech worker groups". This is the first I have ever heard of it. It is about time..

Not very useful (5, Insightful)

russotto (537200) | about 3 months ago | (#47159729)

American IT workers boycotting firms which don't hire Americans? They're not even going to notice.

Re:Not very useful (1)

Andy_Poloni (920253) | about 3 months ago | (#47159803)

Very good point. ;)

Re:Not very useful (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 3 months ago | (#47159807)

They might notice if they still had any American IT workers.

Re: Not very useful (4, Funny)

jd2112 (1535857) | about 3 months ago | (#47160387)

Shure they will. "See, we told you there aren't any qualified American applicants."

What does IBM do these days anyway? (1)

The New Guy 2.0 (3497907) | about 3 months ago | (#47159733)

I'm not sure what's left at IBM ever since they started selling off divisions years ago. The PC/workstation/laptop division got sold off as Lenovo, their online services never materialized, and there's not much sign as what their products are. Is IBM just a corporate shell remaining?

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (1)

androidph (3631653) | about 3 months ago | (#47159781)

I'm not sure what's left at IBM ever since they started selling off divisions years ago. The PC/workstation/laptop division got sold off as Lenovo, their online services never materialized, and there's not much sign as what their products are. Is IBM just a corporate shell remaining?

they still have DB2, Websphere etc. which I think is as widely used as Oracle products.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (1)

BosstonesOwn (794949) | about 3 months ago | (#47160695)

they have also done a lot of buying of other companies as of late... Big data and cloud services are what they are buying now.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (3, Interesting)

digsbo (1292334) | about 3 months ago | (#47159787)

The do IT services and consulting in addition to some continued technology development. They buy a technology, and develop it internally, and then sell consulting services to implement it. Think of SAP. Same idea, same questionable (at best?) quality of delivery. But for companies that can't make a project happen with in-house talent, there's a market for so-so IT consulting.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (2)

sexconker (1179573) | about 3 months ago | (#47159935)

The do IT services and consulting

So, nothing?

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (4, Insightful)

idontgno (624372) | about 3 months ago | (#47160067)

Selling "nothing" for a high hourly billable over an extended contract term is the pinnacle of selling. Don't minimize IBM's profit-generating prowess in this respect.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160703)

They're a Philosophy company. They don't have a product, but they can tell you why.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (3, Informative)

digsbo (1292334) | about 3 months ago | (#47160215)

Company A buys company B, needs to import or marry their two systems. Neither company has staff on hand to do the integration project, because everyone at B got laid off, and A is busy with business as usual. Consultants come in and delivery a badly built, badly delivered "solution". It might even meet some subset of the requirements in a minimal way. I wouldn't say they're giving great value, but it's not nothing.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (3, Informative)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 3 months ago | (#47159967)

They sell a bill of goods to banks that have plenty of money and no brains.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (-1, Flamebait)

Andy_Poloni (920253) | about 3 months ago | (#47159821)

They rent out dot-heads who work on the cheap.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160005)

their PC division was a tiny fraction of the company. They still make a shitload of enterprise hardware (mainframes, system P, system X). A lot of enterprise software (DB2, Websphere, being the two HUGE product lines). And a LOT of consulting.

IBM doesn't do much for the average consumer -- they still have a lot of relevance to enterprise players though.

About time (1)

junkgoof (607894) | about 3 months ago | (#47160069)

Good. Offshoring is only making money for these middle men. The clients take on loads of cheap offshore people who don't know how to tie their shoes and end up paying other people to do the work if they're lucky or paying their offshorer for even more people to do the actual work if they signed a bad deal. The workers offshore work crazy hours and get nothing, crap salary, no training. The few motivated competent people offshore move on to H1-B or other parts of the industry but most just get dumped on. It's stressful continually failing to do a job you're just not able to do, and it's painful working with these guys, trying not to get completely frustrated. Meanwhile onshore workers get dumped on and we end up doing more work to cover for the offshore guys while salaries drop and it's hard to move because a lot of the big guys are going with the management fad... Code quality is visibly dropping worldwide.

Do real HR in India and the industry drops by 90%. If you actually require the people you hire at $5/hour have some IT knowledge or aptitude (just one or the other, not both, that would be really optimistic) most people will have to leave the industry. Sort of like NA during the boom except clueless people would last 2 days here instead of billing clients for years.

Re:What does IBM do these days anyway? (1)

Mondor (704672) | about 3 months ago | (#47160549)

Watson, for example. Very promising technology. I hope it will help medics to diagnose diseases, in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

I'd be more impressed if I heard of any of them (4, Informative)

Nova Express (100383) | about 3 months ago | (#47159805)

"Bright Future Jobs, the Programmers Guild and WashTech."

Who, who, and who?

As of August 1999, the Programmers Guild had 400 members. [wikipedia.org] Mighty important organization there, if you can't be bothered to offer membership numbers from this century. Which, to be fair, looks to be the last time their web page look was updated. [programmersguild.org]

As far as I can tell, "Bright Future Jobs" is one person Donna Conroy [brightfuturejobs.com] .

WashTech is a union. [washtech.org] No thanks.

I suspect that IBM, Infosys and Manpower won't even notice their "boycott."

It's a start (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | about 3 months ago | (#47160729)

at least they're _trying_.

And fyi, you owe everything you have today to Unions (that and the Cold War putting a halt on outsourcing). For God's sake man, read about what pre-Union life was like for all but the very, very rich. Just go read "A People's History of the United States" and go from there.

A slight misdirect (5, Informative)

rijrunner (263757) | about 3 months ago | (#47159819)

I did my time at IBM and learned this the hard way.

IBM does not favor hiring foreign applicants.

What they did at IBM Boulder was simple. At the beginning of LEAN in IBM e-Business, they laid off 1/3 of the staff. They moved from dedicated support for a pool of resources. And, as a result of the class action lawsuit, they cut everyone's pay 15%. After a lot of people left voluntarily, they fell well below the level of staff they needed to keep things running.

So, they decided to hire. Not regular employees, of course. Contractors. Only makes sense, yes? So, they opened up a number of junior admin positions at $12/hr. And a number of senior positions at $15/hr. When no one applied, they bumped it up slightly. Eventually, they were able to hire people in, but at a much lower rate than what the people who had left made. The nice thing about this from their perspective is that they also eliminated contracting companies that had things like paid vacation. (There might be a contracting company that still pays vacation, but I don't know what it is. There is one that still offers a small training budget).

Nationality of employee was completely irrelevant.

The color of the cog in the machine is irrelevant.

Cheap. Crappy. Brutal. That is the IBM Way now.

Re:A slight misdirect (3, Informative)

Bigbutt (65939) | about 3 months ago | (#47159877)

Yep. Been in Boulder IBM and had to bail after 2 years. The Cog thing was pretty scary. Managers would just come into a room and 'duck, duck, goose! have your desk cleared out by Wednesday". When they 'Goose'd our Interface to the Customer (2 days to be gone), I figured IBM had blown a gear or something and started looking for a way out. Fortunately found it just up the road and have been here for almost 7 years.

[John]

Re:A slight misdirect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159903)

It's the American (Corporate) way . . . payroll is the highest cost of any business and its' the only section of the business that can be truly manipulated.

Re:A slight misdirect (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159977)

Yet strangely, the executives pay only goes up........

Re:A slight misdirect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160087)

That isn't always true for all businesses. Salaries for businesses with large capital expenses and relatively few staff members (e.g., petrol industry, retail/wholesale trade, etc.) generally only make up ~20% of operating expenses.

Re:A slight misdirect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160585)

Can confirm this. Even current employees will tell you the same and that it is wrong. But they have no power.

Why are people so pissed off about this? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47159839)

People expect to be able to buy cheap crap made in asia, but they get pissed when companies decide to just move everything to asia.

Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sector (5, Informative)

ebusinessmedia1 (561777) | about 3 months ago | (#47159865)

There is ample evidence that many American corporations have been actively discriminating against American Workers for well over a decade. This is especially true when it comes to STEM work skills. India, China, and Russia have been the main sources of off-shoring (and now, in-shoring). India is the absolute worst, with India's goovernment actively pushing for more H1-Bs because they would rather America hire them than India build proper educational and business infrastructure systems. Indian government is one of the most corrupt on earth (easily as corrupt as some of the worst African states).

Want proof? Unemployment is a problem in America, and so are our sticky problems with immigration. Undercover of helping those immigrants who have so long labored in our agricultural sector, the American IT sector has seen fit to use the sentiment to help agricultural workers to create a Landslide of advantage for itself. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com]

The H-1B fiasco has cost Americans **$10TRILLION** dollars, since 1975. For anyone who wants to know the truth, read on.

One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem http://www.cringely.com/2012/1... [cringely.com]

Here's an attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]

H1-B abuse if accompanied by other worker-visa abuse L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg). There are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas. http://economyincrisis.org/con... [economyincrisis.org]

Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on this problem. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/... [ucdavis.edu]

Federal offshoring of healthcare.gov website http://www.economicpopulist.or... [economicpopulist.org]

How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers http://www.motherjones.com/pol... [motherjones.com]

There is no stem worker crisis in America http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo... [ieee.org]

Marc Zuckerberg and wealthy tech scions continue to perpetuate this trend http://programmersguild.org/do... [programmersguild.org]

Yahoo http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs... [yahoo.com]

Also, little known is the tactic of creating many different kinds of sub-visa categories to "fool the system". There are almost TWENTY different kinds of work visas. The whole thing is a sham and a lie, designed to drag down wages and keep from having to re-train Americans. Never thought I would see this day!

Some of the information presented in the aforementioned links will shock most Americans, because American corporate leaders don't want us to know the truth, and they are paying off policy makers with contributions to keep the truth from us. Bill Gates, John Chambers, Mark Zuckerberg, Eric Schmidt, and many, many others - including the principals of the most prominent immigration law firms, who profit from this outrage, are lying through their teeth. There is NO shortage of STEM workers in the US!!

Re:Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sect (2)

msmonroe (2511262) | about 3 months ago | (#47160177)

It's kind of a kick in the teeth to people who get a degree and/ or trained to get better paying jobs to further themselves. Get a degree and go into debt and then we will outsource your jobs overseas.
The funny thing at least in India a lot of the people that are working for hardly anything are just starting out or don't have experience. Experienced people in India don't want to work for nothing either.

Re:Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sect (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 3 months ago | (#47160275)

In order for business to not use H1B's means changing the tax laws that create this unfair enviornment that Americans are becoming more, and more unsupporting of.

Re:Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160415)

I know for a fact that some companies game the H1B system. If they want a particular H1B individual they will take that person's resume and generate a job description from it (ever wonder why sometimes you see ads that want very specific long combinations of skills/experience?) and then they publish the ad for the minimum required time so as to not generate suspicion. Maybe they actually get a couple of resumes that would be a match for their crazy ad, no matter. They do the interviews and select the H1B person they wanted from the start, and justify it with a thin pile of "qualified" applicants should they ever get audited. They can easily explain away why the couple of local applicants they got didn't pass the interview. Happens every day here in Seattle.

Re:Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sect (1)

m00sh (2538182) | about 3 months ago | (#47160567)

By the same argument then we should not be allowed to import foreign cars because it hurts the Americans who work in the auto industry.

Similarly, made in China products should be banned because they hurt the American factory worker.

And so and so on.

Yes, allowing foreign workers in the US hurts the people in the tech sector here. But, you can't simply ignore the huge pool of people in India and China who are trained to be engineers. This is capitalism and the low cost of labor will put an enormous pressure on the way the systems work by artificially restricting them.

Also competition makes us all better. Why are we afraid of a little competition?

Re:Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sect (1)

SuhlScroll (925963) | about 3 months ago | (#47160715)

`By the same argument then we should not be allowed to import foreign cars because it hurts the Americans who work in the auto industry.`

It actually does, but nobody cares at this point given the Big 3 made garbage for a long time because they had a monopoly on the market. Introducing the foreign manufacturers was a result of people in the gov't getting pissed off with the Big 3 and the Labor Unions who they collaborate with. Had the Big 3 built cars that were worth a crap they probably wouldn't have the competition they do, they just got greedy in a big way and got cut for it.

`Similarly, made in China products should be banned because they hurt the American factory worker.`

They actually do, not to mention hurting people who buy crap with lead paint and pet food that's tainted.

`Yes, allowing foreign workers in the US hurts the people in the tech sector here. But, you can't simply ignore the huge pool of people in India and China who are trained to be engineers.`

Of course we can, especially since the ones in In-juh tend to be trained so poorly. Did you ever ask yourself why so many of them over there are trained to be engineers? Uh, that's so that they can try and attempt all the work that was outsourced from here. Stop the outsourcing and you'll find more people here will actually go into STEM fields/careers.

`This is capitalism and the low cost of labor will put an enormous pressure on the way the systems work by artificially restricting them.`

No, it's crony capitalism where a few people benefit from huge profit margins off of using cheap foreign labor while a lot of workers, taxpayers in general, and the government suffer from loss of income tax revenue ... big difference.

`Also competition makes us all better. Why are we afraid of a little competition?`

Says the guy who hasn't gotten it in the rear from it. It's not competition, it's cronyism, and if you're not the one directly benefiting from it you're probably getting screwed by it.

Re:Corporate outsourcing fraud permeates STEM sect (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 3 months ago | (#47160793)

The thing is that H1-B's are much better for America as a whole than not allowing this immigrant labor because the alternative would be more US companies moving off-shore.

If they do tax revenue and the associated secondary business activity in the US goes with it.

H1-B has some bad effects but the alternative is much worse.

Nativism (-1, Troll)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | about 3 months ago | (#47159943)

Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.

Someone explain to me why people who just happened to be born in the bounds of an arbitrary nation should have ANY advantages over someone who was not. In fact, precisely the opposite argument can be made: those who were disadvantaged by birth should get all the advantages when it comes to being employed in the USA.

"Tech worker groups" sounds suspiciously like whites and Asians to me. Why should these high-IQ groups receive advantages when so many other groups don't? They don't need any advantages, they already have them in the form of a culture that values education and two-parent families. It sounds a hell of a lot like racism to me. What would Maya Angelou say about the situation?

Re:Nativism (3, Insightful)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 3 months ago | (#47160033)

How about removing the tax loop holes that allow this nonsense to happen?

Re:Nativism (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160107)

Almost all unions in the US are nativist in origin if not in current implementation. No big surprise that the collapse of the unions in the late 60s and 70s coincided with the rise of minorities in blue collar/skilled labor.

Unions for unskilled labor are bad enough, but unions for people who have skill but for some reason think they shouldnt have to compete - fuck them to hell.

Re:Nativism (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 3 months ago | (#47160479)

Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.

Almost all unions in the US are nativist in origin if not in current implementation. No big surprise that the collapse of the unions in the late 60s and 70s coincided with the rise of minorities in blue collar/skilled labor.

Which minorities are those? African Americans? Since most African Americans have ancestors in this country going back over 200 years, I don't think they qualify as the "newcomers or immigrants" that nativism discriminates against.

Re:Nativism (1, Insightful)

pigiron (104729) | about 3 months ago | (#47160159)

Because it's OUR fucking country and birthright you stupid fuck! NO Asian country would ever consider doing this. They actively discriminate against foreigners.

Re:Nativism (-1, Flamebait)

msmonroe (2511262) | about 3 months ago | (#47160285)

That dudes a racist; that's a racist remark.

Re:Nativism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160343)

Uh, no, it's NOT racist and he is quite correct. By the way, In-juh is the biggest protector of their own workers. Try to emigrate to In-juh as a software engineer and see how far you get.

Re:Nativism (2)

pigiron (104729) | about 3 months ago | (#47160407)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard it all before and it's really wearing thin. Thankfully most real Americans don't pay any attention to the alleged slur anymore despite its repetition at increasingly higher levels of hysteria. You can only cry wolf so many times. Oops, so sorry, that's no doubt a culturally biased reference! LOL

BTW, Asians are among the most racist and class conscious people on earth. The Japanese-Negro inter-racial marriage rate is approximately zero.

Re:Nativism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160181)

I don't think this is really about nativism. It's about the american residents getting screwed by having their wages driven down, the H1Bs being screwed by becoming cheap indentured labour for a period of time, the government budgets being screwed by decreased taxation due to lower wages, and large tax-avoiding multinationals doing the screwing.

Re:Nativism (0)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 3 months ago | (#47160317)

Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.

Hence the H-1B program is nativist because people here on an H-1B visa are required to leave the country if they're unemployed. That's very different from groups that have a more privileged status like citizens and green card holders. This nativism is one of the main complaint of opponents of the H-1B program.

"Tech worker groups" sounds suspiciously like whites and Asians to me. Why should these high-IQ groups receive advantages when so many other groups don't?

You're also a bigot who believes that whites and Asians are smarter than other groups. Have you been reading "The Bell Curve"?

Re:Nativism (1)

msmonroe (2511262) | about 3 months ago | (#47160321)

Nativism

"Tech worker groups" sounds suspiciously like whites and Asians to me. Why should these high-IQ groups receive advantages when so many other groups don't? They don't need any advantages, they already have them in the form of a culture that values education and two-parent families. It sounds a hell of a lot like racism to me. What would Maya Angelou say about the situation?

You're the racist man! I am surprised that no one has called you out on you're BS!

Re:Nativism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160435)

`Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.`

It also applies to business practices when dealing with people or companies that are not based in your country; i.e., imports/exports.

`Someone explain to me why people who just happened to be born in the bounds of an arbitrary nation should have ANY advantages over someone who was not.`

Because a) nation's boundaries are NOT arbitrary, and are often set as a consequence of war and personal sacrifice by citizens of that country, and b) people who already live in/support/pay taxes to a given country should quite naturally be favored by that country in relation to people who don't/aren't.

`In fact, precisely the opposite argument can be made: those who were disadvantaged by birth should get all the advantages when it comes to being employed in the USA.`

The argument can be made, just not well given the logic is liberal and quite poor. Liberalism is defined as a set of political positions which allow entities to claim false moral superiority and then coerce others to give them things they are not deserving of nor have worked to earn.

`"Tech worker groups" sounds suspiciously like whites and Asians to me.`

And why is that? Do you resent those groups? Are you a racist?

`Why should these high-IQ groups receive advantages when so many other groups don't?`

Because in gainful employment money is exchanged for value; those with a higher IQ are often (but not always) those who generate more value, therefore they tend to have an easier time getting and staying employed.

`They don't need any advantages, they already have them in the form of a culture that values education and two-parent families.`

But a lot of liberals would argue that culture is bad and that any form of `family` is equally good (they just can't argue it well because it's obviously not true).

`It sounds a hell of a lot like racism to me.`

Indeed. ;)

`What would Maya Angelou say about the situation?`

Nothing coherent, I'm sure, but that wouldn't stop her from getting a bunch of false accolades for her `work`.

Re:Nativism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160445)

Newcomers/immigrants are residents of this country, and have been granted the right to work here. H1Bs are neither. They are foreign nationals with no standing in this country that large companies lobby our government to allow them to come work here temporarily at depressed wages (and yes, they *do* get lower wages). The more a given area brings in, the more the local wages stagnate.

Don't get me wrong, I do not place one bit of blame on the H1B worker. Just like I don't blame our neighbors from south of the border for sneaking into our country in hopes of a better life. For all of America's problems, it's one of the best countries to be born in. Who I do blame are greedy corporations simply looking to take away the earning power of American workers. It's okay for a business to try and make as much money as the market will let them, but somehow workers are viewed by companies as not having that same right (as an aside, just look at the Silicon Valley collusion to stifle tech-works wages with their secret "no compete" agreements).

Re:Nativism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160489)

Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.

Someone explain to me why people who just happened to be born in the bounds of an arbitrary nation should have ANY advantages over someone who was not. In fact, precisely the opposite argument can be made: those who were disadvantaged by birth should get all the advantages when it comes to being employed in the USA.

Because the US is not supposed to be a communist country. Nor is it supposed to be a global God watching over the world.

But with globalism, and many power-hungry corporations and governments (there is no difference anymore) that has changed.

Global corporations, do not care about constitutions, or laws, or traditions, or anything besides making a buck.

There is nothing to explain. If you are for globalism, then your argument makes sense.

If you are pro-America, communism (whatever vector it arrives under, be it overt political means, or religion, or sneaking it in via "capitalism" that is really fascist socialism and state-sponsored, bought by the corporations) is supposed to be beyond contempt.

The real question, if America is to be a communist country, and it is too late to turn back, then is it to be welfare for the people, or welfare for the corporations?

Education is nothing more than training for the global workforce; it, too, has been purchased, and is nothing more than state-funded
education camps for lifelong servitude (the global state, America is no longer pertinent)

If you want to dismantle all borders, and unite everyone under a world government, besides the loss of culture and identity you will wrought upon civilizations, beyond the cynicism and exploitation and greed and that are the true motives (and the aggressive wars that will be justified as defending a way of life, but are nothing more than an offensive waged on the world to make corporations even richer), then great.

Please, let it be a government of the people, not of the corporations at the expense of everyone else.

The real question, is why should capitalism be allowed to buy governments and make them socialist, so that they have generations upon generations of lifelong slaves?

Why should the rules of America all of a sudden change to make behemoths even richer -- because they bought the law?

Like you said -- the opposite argument can be made. Giant corporations sitting on billions need no hand-holding, what they need is a good kick in the balls (if they had any, alas, they do not, for they do not wish to compete, they are for anything except competition, they strongly prefer bribery and fixing things).

The real question is, did we the people elect to be globalists, or was it ushered in quietly?

Not everyone in the U.S. cares about parents, or families.

Why would you foster more socialism upon those who want less?

I agree, the U.S. does not need any more rigging, we rig things enough.

Your solution, of rigging things even more, is worse.

Race doesn't matter to corporations, you think they give a shit? Money is what matters.

Do you think Hitler really cared about race? It was an excuse for power. Do not confuse the means with the ends.

It is not the job of the corporation to wage socialism upon the masses.

If you want socialism, the government can do it directly, without corporations siphoning off the majority of it, and tossing scraps
back to those they are (out of the kindness of their ever-loving hearts!) trying to "serve."

There is no need for a middle man here, if that is what you truly want.

Hell, do it the other way around, lets just kill all the governments and laws and be bound by corporate handbooks instead.

At least then we won't have to pretend anymore.

At least we can pay our taxes directly to their recipients, instead of going through the government and pretending we are
being served.

If they want to subvert the government, they should either give back what they have taken (CEOs, board members, and even shareholders must all be elected by their constituents, the workers) OR the corporations can provide the welfare state that they seem to like so much.

Why has "capitalism" devolved into socialism? Is this by design? Is this unavoidable and inevitable? Just an accident?

Preferably, the people should not look with anything but suspicion upon government, and corporations. That is what Americans should be -- eternally vigilant, always on the guard, and wary of calls for "peace" that are always a lie.

The fact that people expect the corporate state and the government to take care of them, is troubling.

If that is what you want, great. But do not pretend it is capitalism, do not call it a free market, let us no longer pretend to be the home of the brave.

If you want socialism, lets have it, and we don't need the corporations. If you want corporate rule, great, no need for government.

It is a waste of time, to play this shell game. What a shocker, they got everyone's money either way, it was rigged from the start.

And they move onto their next victims, and you think they deserve all the advantages they can get.

If Americans are telling you how fucked up and crooked companies doing business in the U.S. are, what makes you think they won't and aren't pulling the same bullshit on you?

What, you will get your money first and be out, lickety split, so it won't affect you?

Think again. How do you think the U.S. workers ended up in this mess?

I didn't elect Maya Angelou. I didn't elect so-called "education and two-parent families."

You can have most of the present American "culture" it is nothing more than greed.

You really think America has a "culture" worth preserving? 12 year old girls killing each other to serve Slenderman is our "culture."

Surprise, they found Slenderman on the internet. Surprise, the parents were probably at work, serving their corporate masters.

And you want to EXPORT that shit around the world, we need more of it, do we?

If I ever wanted socialism, it would be for people, not for corporations, not for governments, not for races, not for genders, not for "cultures".

Re:Nativism (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160537)

Someone explain to me why people who just happened to be born in the bounds of an arbitrary nation should have ANY advantages over someone who was not

Originally it was called the "Declaration of Independence" and no, it was not arbitrary, it used to mean something.

Other nations can speak for themselves.

Re:Nativism (1)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 3 months ago | (#47160555)

Charity begins at home.

We (natives) built this country, developed the land and the infrastructure, defined its laws and its culture and made it a distinct entity. We pay the taxes that keep it all going and keep it defended from those who would take advantage of us. "We" were not a uniform body of people, but a series of waves of immigrants (or invaders, depending on who you ask) and what we were 20 years ago isn't what we will be 20 years from now, but nevertheless, we are unique among the nations of the world, just like everyone else.

It's only natural that people who know and are related to each other would want first and foremost to support each other over any other randomly selected set of people. Every country does this, and while "everyone else does" is a poor excuse in general, in this particular case, anyone who does not is at a disadvantage relative to those who do.

It is a Conservative axiom that people should be self-sufficient, but outsourcing critical resources is a violation of that axiom, whether it's by offshoring or by imported labor. Putting your assets into the hands of people who have no reason by virtue of shared common interests other than short-term commercial ones is simply foolish. Today's friends may be tomorrow's enemies, or at the least, have found some other country to work for instead.

So slapping a label on it doesn't make it somehow evil. It's simply being prudent. We're not talking xenophobia, putting up a fence around the country or anything of that nature, we're talking about strengthening and supporting our native assets. The people whose paychecks get cycled back into the tax base and local businesses instead of flying off to other lands. And who will still be here in 20 years and know what to do when the temps have all moved on and taken their domain knowledge with them.

Manpower's execs have been doing some reading (1)

compro01 (777531) | about 3 months ago | (#47159957)

The executives at Manpower must have done some reading and figured they wanted to be more like Manpower of Mesa.

Yay! Thank You! (5, Interesting)

Tablizer (95088) | about 3 months ago | (#47159965)

I've witnessed H1B-related shenanigans directly myself, such as forcing everyone to work without overtime pay at a big telecom company that rhymes with Ate Tea and Pea. The citizens tended to balk, but not the H1B's because they didn't want to rock the boat because their pay was a lot of money when spent back home. It's a lopsided mess; a way for companies to get more labor for less money. The "shortage" thing is lobbyist bullshit!

Infosys age discrimination (4, Interesting)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about 3 months ago | (#47160031)

I gave infosys a resume for a friend for a job that required a degree.

They bounced it back to me and said it needed to have her exact high school graduation date. Not the fact she had a high school degree. The date at which she was 17 or 18.

It should be illegal to require a person's high school graduation date on a resume.

Why dont we have a national IT union? (2)

Lumpy (12016) | about 3 months ago | (#47160209)

Like Electricians? companies cant pull this shit on Electricians, if IT people would pull their heads out of their ass and unionize the problem would solve it's self overnight.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

digsbo (1292334) | about 3 months ago | (#47160273)

That might work out for people threatened by it, but I'm doing very nicely, and under no circumstances am I giving up the good pay, reasonable hours, and decent PTO policy I'm getting. I'm sorry, but for me to join a union would set me back significantly. I know there are good and bad shops, but w/ unemployment for software engineers at under 3%, I have trouble understanding.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160357)

That might work out for people threatened by it, but I'm doing very nicely, and under no circumstances am I giving up the good pay, reasonable hours, and decent PTO policy I'm getting. I'm sorry, but for me to join a union would set me back significantly. I know there are good and bad shops, but w/ unemployment for software engineers at under 3%, I have trouble understanding.

Ever notice that the cries to unionize tend to come from the less-skilled workers?

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

retchdog (1319261) | about 3 months ago | (#47160481)

true, but that is a perniciously relative standard, as you will probably learn eventually one way or another. :)

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

digsbo (1292334) | about 3 months ago | (#47160745)

true, but that is a perniciously relative standard, as you will probably learn eventually one way or another. :)

You don't know that. Some people are more prudent/aggressive/lucky and don't have that experience. I was lucky in that I had a rough period when my first company was swallowed. From then on, I understood I needed to be competitive. It takes extra work, but it's worth it.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160375)

You'll be old one day. Then you'll understand where and how a union would come in handy to protect you... but, alas, there won't be one.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

digsbo (1292334) | about 3 months ago | (#47160749)

As it happens, I'm almost "old" now, and am managing my career carefully. It's called personal responsibility, and it's hard.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160539)

That might work out for people threatened by it, but I'm doing very nicely, and under no circumstances am I giving up the good pay, reasonable hours, and decent PTO policy I'm getting. I'm sorry, but for me to join a union would set me back significantly. I know there are good and bad shops, but w/ unemployment for software engineers at under 3%, I have trouble understanding.

tl;dr: "I'm doing well, screw anyone who isn't."

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

digsbo (1292334) | about 3 months ago | (#47160747)

How is that any different in terms of self-interest from wanting to keep the foreign H1-Bs out? Look in the mirror.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160781)

What you get is shit compared to what a Sr electrician gets.

$55 an hour and a guaranteed 8 weeks of vacation a year.

They're coming for you (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | about 3 months ago | (#47160787)

It's only a matter of time. Give it 5, maybe 10 years. Immigration reform means 300,000 new H1-Bs, and most studies show that for every H1-B officially given away there are 3 to 4 of those guys actually working. You didn't think they were sent home, did you?

So, what are you going to do in a few years when 1 million new tech workers (all younger than you, cheaper, and who work more hours) hit the market? You'll do absolutely nothing. You'll be too busy keeping your head above water to. Which is exactly what they want.

One last thing. Doctors have Unions (AMA). Lawyers too (it's called the Bar). If your having trouble understanding why a skilled worker would want a Union ask yourself why Doctors and Lawyers have them :).

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160363)

Like Electricians? companies cant pull this shit on Electricians, if IT people would pull their heads out of their ass and unionize the problem would solve it's self overnight.

IT people proper might eventually unionize as they are akin to skilled tradesmen, but programmers never will. They, as a group, feel some extreme hubris, entitlement, and similar ego issues. Programmers are too 'special' to unionize. Oddly that makes them act like union members already.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

retchdog (1319261) | about 3 months ago | (#47160511)

Generally, programmers think of themselves as artists who happen to be paid a bunch of money for their irreplaceable genius, as opposed to the artists they sneer at and 'monetize'. A union as we know them doesn't really make sense for creative work; some kind of mutualist support system would make more sense. I think the major point is that programmers are the ones automating tasks. Maintenance takes some persistent labor, but at this moment we have a, shall we say, "bubble" of big ideas.

Anyway, this fleeting glory will pass, and probably not exactly the way they think it will [slashdot.org] .

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (1)

freeze128 (544774) | about 3 months ago | (#47160371)

Likewise, who are these "Tech Worker Groups"? Why don't they organize?

Agreed, 110% Lumpy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160395)

My father is a former United Auto Workers President of the Union & told me that to do it, you need to get sponsorship from a MAJOR union, such as UAE, Teamsters, etc. to get it going)...

Then, it's going ALL OVER THE JOINT *trying* to get workers in shops to join!

(That's GOTTA be a LOT of work man - No, it might NOT be "shoveling coal into a hot furnace", but it means travel time away from everything you know though...)

I did that "migrant farm worker" role in IT in most capacities to get paid of course, & for decades in order to NOT ever have to do it again, & I'm finally there @ last (& have been for a decade++ or so).

I'm 50, as far as I am concerned now with the businesses I run independently, I am ALL DONE with that world... too many years "faking" who I was, fitting the "Corporate Mold"... no more, along with the travel.

HOWEVER - YOU, or others here, MAY not be!

NOW, I don't *think* YOU like me too much, & what-not, since you've "ribbed on me" before (for what or why I am not sure) but... this is the 2nd time in a few months I've seen your points & agree with them (overlooking those differences, being a man about it is all).

APK

P.S.=> There's your formula above in the 1st & 2nd paragraphs pretty much - go for it, OR I sincerely HOPE others do... our field, NEEDS this, badly!

... apk

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160417)

Like Electricians? companies cant pull this shit on Electricians, if IT people would pull their heads out of their ass and unionize the problem would solve it's self overnight.

Corporations hate unions and have a ton of advertising power. They've managed to convince otherwise intelligent people that forming communities for the common good is bad. It's like pointing AT&T and saying that mom and pop shops are the devil. Though I will say that having to hire a union boss just to make sure a few temp workers don't slack off is stupid. Once again, there are good unions and bad ones.

Here's a quote I love: http://www.businessweek.com/ar... [businessweek.com]

Generations of students, steeped in neoclassical economics, were taught that setting the price of labor above its equilibrium level causes supply to exceed demand and leads to more unemployment. It makes sense. But as physicist Doyne Farmer once wrote, “If one were to go through any standard introductory economics textbook, and color every statement pink with weak empirical confirmation, most of the book would be pink.”

It talks about Wages, but also applies to what Econ Textbooks say about unions.

Posting as AC because a pro union stance would probably kill any future job prospects.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160455)

Unions have become DNC money laundering schemes. They are just as corrupt as the DNC and are more interested in funding themselves then caring for their members.

Fix that, and you might get traction, but since you are typically a DNC shill you probably only want a union to force others to donate to the DNC and you don't really care if they help members or not.

Re:Why dont we have a national IT union? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160755)

Like Electricians? companies cant pull this shit on Electricians, if IT people would pull their heads out of their ass and unionize the problem would solve it's self overnight.

Simple. The IT people who need a union are people nobody in IT wants to hire anyway.

Too spread out (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | about 3 months ago | (#47160759)

the workers are too spread out. It's tough to organize them. You'd need money, and after 40 years of outsourcing and declining wages nobody has that. Also with how bad the economy is people are scared to stand up for their rights. There's a reason they call it "Wage Slavery"...

Infosys (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160281)

I am an Indian, and I say this with shame.

Indian companies only want to milk America dry and all the while to get rich in the process. They don't care about American workers one iota. That is Indian mentality in general. They live like parasites which feed off host systems until the host dies and then move on to another host. There is no sense of morality, integrity and fairness in the blood. Everything is fair game, if it makes ME rich/happy/satisfied. That is a typical Indian, hence the shitty Indian infrastructure, the constant gaming of the system, the constant backstabbing of the fellow workers. If you are an Indian, and you disagree, you are either a rare breed or you are lying through your teeth.

I wish H1-B visas' would be stopped immediately. There is no freaking shortage of American workers and it is all about making sure that American companies are able to fatten stockholder wallets, and Indian companies making sure America is bled dry while they become the global power house.

When is a tech shortage.. not? (1)

h8sg8s (559966) | about 3 months ago | (#47160381)

IBM repeatedly claims there's a tech shortage so they can import cheaper H1-B and offshore labor to boost their bottom line. This has been going on for over a decade and no one's called them on it. About freaking time.

Manpower? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160403)

did not know Manpower is a company. I always thought man power is the number of people available or required to perform a particular function. Manpower is also called: personnel, staff.

hum (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160517)

So manufacturing jobs are pretty much gone in the u.s just a few left which are owned by foreign automotive companies from Germany and Japan and now these big corporations want to take the service based jobs as well. So what is left for the blue and white color worker? prostitution? Sorry, but big corporations such as microsoft, ibm, apple, oracle, ford, gm, etc.. should be all split up to increase competition.

Why can't we outsource the CIO and CEO? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 3 months ago | (#47160783)

That's the big money saver.

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